Re: This FOSS Thang :-)

Le 23-03-2024, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> a écrit :

On 3/22/24 6:52 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 19-03-2024, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> a écrit :

Plus you're implying that the work done by full time UI professionals is
bad

 
I'm not implying anything. It's clear.

>
What's clear?  "Yes" or "No", are you explicitly claiming that the work
done by full time UI professionals is invariably bad?

Of course no. I'm claiming a lot of UI professionals use more time to
choose the colors and the size of the angles than the usability of the
tools they design. Sometimes it can be good.

But clearly, for example, that is bad design:
https://www.workday.com/
It's clear a lot of professional UI designers had worked a lot for it.
I can't understand how so many companies switch to it.
There are others, I won't look for every case I know.

... but do you have any credible citations for that?  Cite, please.

 
Why should I cite anyone?

>
Because you're trying to outwardly go beyond your personal opinion.

My opinion on my way of using my computer is a thousand times worthiest
than your opinion of my way of using my own computer. No study can prove
otherwise.

When I'm using my computer, I not asking
anyone how he feels about it. I can see by myself that the GUI designed
by UI professionals are slowing me. So they're bad and it needs to be
changed. I have nobody to cite and I really see no reason why I should.

>
Merely your non-professional opinion...right?  Have you ever even worked
professionally with any UI designers?  UI researchers?  Obviously, not.

That's the really big issue with UI designers/researchers. They work in
their own world outside of the reality. I've work with a lot of real end
users. I know the gap between your fantasy and the reality.

The best tools I'm using are tools written by developers for developers. No
professional UI designer to interfere and put garbage designed to help
the users unwilling to learn when it become more difficult for the
advanced users.

And
finely, you can use the time spend by others to start from something
almost ready to adapt it easily to your own needs.

>
That's an argument to go with whoever has the larger marketshare, as
they've had the greatest amount of user UI feedback to optimize from.

 
No.

>
Because your sample size of n=1 is more profound than n=millions that
the professionals work with.  "Check!"  /s

Still no. The reason is not the market share size. It's the number of
developers involved. The market share is full of end users unwilling to
do the least effort to learn. The difference doesn't come from the end
users but from the developers.

When I want a theme, I can find a few even with a limited market
share.  I don't find the exact one that I want, but I can find easily a
close enough one. When I want a way to do something, I can find someone
who needed it before me or something close. Without need of market
share.

>
Except you're failing to show how your choice provides for an
objectively more productive UI.  It is clear that you don't know if
you're becoming more productive or less based on your UI choice.

I can see it by myself. I have nothing more to show. I gave you one simple
example. You are unable to look at it.

There's a lot of
configuration files and ideas to help you improve your configuration
effortlessly.

>
Still isn't a zero amount of time ... which adds up the more you tweak.

 
Yes, but the amount of time added is less than the time I would loose by
using a default done by a bad UI designer.

>
Not so, because you've not quantified what the productivity hit was this
allegedly "bad UI":  you merely claiming something doesn't make it true.

If I loose some time, it's bad for me. If I see a lot of people losing
time it's bad in a general sense. If I see a lot of people asking for
help, it's a proof that it's bad. I claim I'm faster with my way of
doing things than when I do things designed by Microsoft (when I need to
ask for help sometimes). I know it. I see it every day.

When I do something it's useful for a really long time. For example,
When I started to learn about tilling Windows Managers, it was with
wmii. Then I was able to use a lot of its configuration to switch to
i3wm. And then, it was the same with swaywm. So with the lot of
similarities between the WM, I used the same shortcuts and I didn't need
to learn anything new. For a very few time invested during the years.
Unlike Windows, which changed everything with each upgrade and I needed
a few months to find my way out each time.

>
Which for users who don't need to know how to program tiling, but just
use the UI, this is relevant...how?

 
That's exactly my point. Thanks a lot for your support. You really
dismissed my points because you consider they are irrelevant when you
don't understand them.
 
I'll rephrase it.
You say: "If you value your time, do my way."

>
Nope.  I'm saying that the UI professionals know what they're doing, and
that there's productivity value gained through UI standardization.

Your way is to follow UI professionals. So it's what I say.

But they do it for all end-users, when all end-users or not the same.
Some are more technical than others, some are more functionals, some are
more willing to learn, some are using it on a day to day basis, some are
using it only once a month or once a year. Some want to use it, some
don't.

So, by design, ou can't have something perfect for everyone. And I know
better than you what's better for me.

>

I say: "I value my time and your way will slow me and make me lose my
time."

>
That does appear to be what you're saying, but it was done without you
offering objective proof that "your way" actually is more productive,
either for you or for anyone else.

I. DON'T. CARE. FOR. ANYONE. ELSE. What part don't you understand? I'm
not an English speaker, I can try to say it in another way if it's
needed.

I care for me. My way is better for me. I don't claim my way is better
for others: I just don't care. What don't you understand.

You say: "Your arguments are irrelevant for people who don't like your
way."

>
Incorrect.  In addition to noting (above) that you've not come close to
substantiating your claim, I'm saying here that the UI developers are
optimizing for their majority use case.  Plus those users do not need to
get down into the weeds of UI is driven by wmii, i3wm, or swaywm.
Indeed, the very fact that you called out those protocols is an
illustration of how far you're off of consideration of the mainstream
use case.

And still you refuse to believe I'm more productive in my way than in
Windows/Mac way. So it's far from incorrect.

Finally, I've noted that there is positive value in productivity in
there being UI standardization.

Which is another subject I don't contest.

And that's where your arguments are garbage. I don't care about the way
the others are using their computers. I care about the way I'm using
mine.

>
Its perfectly fine for you to optimize "for you".  The problem that you
have is, as already noted above, you have no objective substantiation
that you're actually optimizing it even for just yourself.

I provide you an easy example. Only one line. It's easy to see how it's
fast to write. It's easy to see how it's fast to use. It's easy to see
how it's difficult for me who's always on the keyboard to switch to
the mouse to find the file explorer and to find the directories and the
files in it.

Still you refuse to consider it can be better for me because no one
payed by a company will be willing to study my way of doing things that
can be good only for me.

So, when you say: "Do my way because others don't like your way, it's
better for you.", it's just shit.

>
Nope. You are totally free to be stupid and refuse to apply the Best
Practices as applied by pro's who are paid to do this sort of work.

I refuse to apply the best practices designed for others when I can see
by myself they don't suit me. You can consider it stupid, it's an honour
to be considered stupid by a sheep.

OK, you don't trust/believe/understand what I say. It's useless to go
further.

By the way, my way of doing things doesn't change with every update.
Unlike Microsoft. So if say, the design of Windows 7 is good, why change
it for Windows 8? Do you really believe you win productivity when your
end users have to lose time to know where they need to click once the
interface changed?

Where the line is drawn is when you recommend to others that they should
be just as obstinately stupid as you are oh so proudly being.

When did I recommend to others to do the same? It's the only part of the
discussion I would consider answering if my provider display your
answer.

Because I don't care if your lack of brain makes you follows the reports
without the ability to understand them. But when you tell I want to
impose my way on others, it's another story.

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