Sujet : Re: The Joy of *small* business
De : invalid (at) *nospam* invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Groupes : comp.os.linux.miscDate : 21. Dec 2024, 10:54:27
Autres entêtes
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Message-ID : <wwvplllmkdo.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
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"
186282@ud0s4.net" <
186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
On 12/20/24 4:18 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
quite early and were not over-run.
The local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement
for a
few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after
2000BCE.
>
I'd heard that - but don't ask me for a ref.
>
See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
the past 8000 years.
>
As I kinda menntioned in all this ... there's really just no such
thing as 'genetic purity' in Europe.
Or anywhere else. You only get genetic purity in very isolated
populations, and they start building up inherited diseases real
quick. See niche dog breeds for a non-human example.
Over thousands of years various people/groups kept moving around and
moving around and screwing anything interesting they encountered.
>
So, is 'nation' more a CULTURAL THING instead ?
Absolutely yes. People group themselves in all sorts of ways: shared
language, shared religion, shared territory, shared enemy, shared
preferred computing platform. Pretty much anything you can think of.
'Culture' seems more resilient - genes rather
secondary.
>
As for the Basques ... ONLY a 'Y' replacement seems
very odd .....
It’s not hard to imagine models that produce the result observed.
e.g. suppose (1) R1b-M269 social structures led to a surplus of males
(2) that they married ‘out’ into the Iberian neolithic population
(3) they bring their technogical innovations (presumably, nomadic
pastoralism) with them, leading to greater long-term success
(4) as, initially, a relative minority they adopt the local language
(Proto-Proto-Basque or whatever) rather than bringing an IE dialect with
them as seen elsewhere in Europe.
Not saying that’s what happened, other models are possible and reality
is usually more complex than anything you could put in a single
paragraph, just that it’s not hard to imagine ways that it could happen.
We were still speculating about 'Cheddar Man'. For awhile they figured
African/N.African mostly based on the length/size/profile of
bones. What LITTLE DNA they could get suggests a migrant from western
Europe, but it was a small sample. There's also question about WHAT
"western euro" actually MEANT, genetically, at the exact timeframe.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that he was a migrant at all. His
genetics seem to be comparable to older remains from Britain and
Ireland.
-- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/