Re: NastyGoon lifts a line

On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
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On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
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On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
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On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
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On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
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George J. Dance wrote:
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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
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I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler."  And I
was right in doing so.
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Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
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"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
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That's poetry of the highest quality.

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The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
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"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
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I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".

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True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.

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After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
not.
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If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
to read some day when you have the time.
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That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.

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Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]

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No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how
"unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
pile up if one has no time to read them).
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If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.

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Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.

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Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
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Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.

I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade.  A simile
was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is
like B).
I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles,
components, etc., of poetry.  I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
be ignored.  It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness. Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
one can pigeonhole it into.
NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor,
or an example of symbolism.

NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley.  Piled
newspapers are being compared to two very different things.

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Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.

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NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).

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But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
save all the newspapers they've already read?

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As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*

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That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.

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And just what literary device is that?

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"Symbolism" sounds good to me.

It doesn't to me.
A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another.  Using
"Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's
actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers"
(which I still think is a simile).

If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.

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So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.

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Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?

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I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.

How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?

Now, as for their
similes, both are virtualy identical: both compare days ("The days" in
one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
in the other).

But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.
Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.
Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
meanings?

The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.

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Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
normally stack up that way

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Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
they are stacked up by others.

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That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've alread
read.

It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one
can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context
(something which you do in practically every post).  According to your
sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are
capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).
If you don't like it, don't do it.

But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?

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If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the says "pile
up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
"pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
normally "stack up" (like
"read newspapers"). That should be clear enough to anyone who isn't just
trying to play the peabrain.

See my comments below.  While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because
the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get
stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --
which is what NancyGene's poem is about.

- once they're read, they're thrown away.

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Under normal circumstances, yes.

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So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.
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However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and
magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.

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Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's
speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.

I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further
into the poem.  I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my
initial reading.

If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something
else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a
hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.

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"Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,
whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than
NastyGoon's.

Because old clothes don't represent memories.
A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)
is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events
one experiences each day.

Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
practices of my Great Aunt.

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Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from
clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you
were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from
the exact same clinical depression?

I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one.  Depression varies with
the individual.  I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression
often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave
their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their
appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.

My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt
like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how
"yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall
"stack up".

I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.
I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and
can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their
memories.
Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical
depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric
similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and
daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local
community and the world at large on a day by day basis).

Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being
weighed down by the past is not.

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First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make
sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.

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There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his
supposed poem.

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We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely
by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got
NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection
see it as a bad simile.

You see what you want to see, George.

Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you
say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.

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I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks.  Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.

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Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up
to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who
didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers
were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,
just as I do.

And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the
similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories.  One
doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize
that.
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