Re: NastyGoon lifts a line

On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
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On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
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On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
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George J. Dance wrote:
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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
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I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler."  And I
was right in doing so.
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Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
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"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
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That's poetry of the highest quality.

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The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
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"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
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I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".

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True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.

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After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
not.
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If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
to read some day when you have the time.
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That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.

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Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]

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No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how
"unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
pile up if one has no time to read them).
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If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.

Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.

NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley.  Piled
newspapers are being compared to two very different things.

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Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.

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NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).

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But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
save all the newspapers they've already read?

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As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*

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That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.

And just what literary device is that?

If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.

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So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.

Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?

The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.

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Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
normall stack up that way

Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
they are stacked up by others.
But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?

- once they're read, they're thrown away.

Under normal circumstances, yes.
However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and
magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.

If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something
else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a
hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.

Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
practices of my Great Aunt.

Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being
weighed down by the past is not.

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First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make
sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.

There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his
supposed poem.

Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you
say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.

I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks.  Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
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