Re: California Bill to Prohibit Law Enforcement from Wearing Masks

On 6/30/2025 3:12 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

On Jun 30, 2025 at 12:05:09 PM PDT, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
 

On 6/29/2025 5:54 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

  On Jun 29, 2025 at 2:46:02 PM PDT, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
 

  On 6/29/2025 5:39 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

    On Jun 29, 2025 at 1:50:43 PM PDT, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
  wrote:
   

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

    Jun 29, 2025 at 8:16:11 AM PDT, moviePig <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    6/28/2025 7:39 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

    Jun 28, 2025 at 4:00:54 PM PDT, moviePig <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    6/28/2025 6:22 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

>

    . . .

>

    AMENDMENT V

>

    No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property,
    without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for
    public use, without just compensation.

>

    But we're talking about something that'd *be* a state "law"...

>

    Right, and since the 5th Amendment has been incorporated against
the states,
    any state law that violates it would be void.

>

    I don't understand what you mean by "incorporated against the states".

>

    The Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government. So,
    for example, the federal government couldn't search your home without
    a warrant or infringe on your free speech but there was no restriction
    on state governments from doing so. You had to look to your state's
    constitution for those protections from state officials. But after
    the Civil War, the 14th Amendment incorporated (most of)** the Bill
    of Rights against the states as well, imposing the same limitations on
    state governments that it imposes on the federal government. That's why
    you can sue under the 1st Amendment if your local police shut down your
    protest or censor your newspaper.

>

    **I think the 3rd Amendment still exists as solely federal in application.

>
    Hehehe
>
    I knew you were going there.
>
    Here's a helpful chart on the off chance moviePig is interested.
>
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine
>
    Note that the Seventh Amendment, which is the procedural right to a jury
    trial in a civil suit, is not incorporated, and clauses in the Fifth and
    Sixth Amendments aren't incorporated. It's unlikely that the Ninth will
    be incorporated, the forgotten part of the Constitution, and the Tenth
    wouldn't make any sense.
>
    Also, moviePig needs an understanding of substantive due process.
>
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/substantive_due_process
>
    In fact, he should appreciate it since due process is literally procedural
    and therefore "substantive" makes no sense. Also, the original meaning of
    "substantive" from the Lochner era got reversed in the post-Lochner era
    (after Roosevelt threatened to pack the Supreme Court and decisions
finally
    went his way), so moviePig should appreciate that contradiction too.
>
    I have the most minimal understanding of substantive due process.
>

    Are you placing some "burden of proof" on the states?  Regardless, both
    abortion and rape are (intensely) personal matters for the individual,
    so how do you see the Constitution as treating them differently?

>

    One is a seizure and invasion of a woman's body and the other isn't.

>
    Either way, she lacks autonomy.

        Which isn't what the 4th Amendment protects.

>
  What is 'seizure' if not a curtailment of autonomy?

    Where in the abortion scenario has the government seized anything?

>
It has taken, whether by prohibition or punishment, control of her body.

 Using that standard, the government can't prohibiting anyone from doing
anything unless they get a warrant first.
 For example, I'm prohibited by law from selling one of my kidneys. It's
illegal to do that. According to you, the government has 'seized' my autonomy
and freedom to do with my body as I wish, so it has violated the 4th
Amendment's warrant requirement.
 Same with drugs. The government has made it illegal for me to use heroin.
Under moviePig Law, it has illegally seized my bodily autonomy.
 Of course that's not how it works. It's not how any of it works.

Well, yes, I think that protecting my choices having consequence only to me is very much in the spirit of both Declaration and Constitution.
So, you might outlaw trafficking in body parts as ultimately harmful to society ...like obscenity laws.  But, if you find some fun drugs in the meadow and go on a 3-hour field trip, then by all means bon voyage.
It's not (or shouldn't be) your business to tell me how to live.