Re: CD players vs SD players

On 20/06/2024 08:24 Trevor Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

On 19/06/2024 4:12 am, The Running Man wrote:

On 16/06/2024 06:20 Trevor Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

On 15/06/2024 4:28 pm, The Running Man wrote:

On 15/06/2024 11:00 Trevor Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

On 11/06/2024 10:30 pm, The Running Man wrote:

I'm personally a proponent of SD-card audio players, which have no moving parts, no lasers or servo's to break down or go out of alignment, no spindle motor, no speed deviation.
>
I'm both horrified and amused with all the technical solutions manufacturers are advertising that supposedly improve "sound quality". The gist is that you're essentially trying to digital samples. And samples could be stored a variety of ways, on hard disks, flash disks, SD cards and tape if you so desire.
>
Systems with no moving parts are obviously the best and most reliable.

>
**Indeed. However, several points:
>
* The most critical aspects to good sound reproduction lie with the DAC
and the output stages. The best DACs are generally regarded to be R2R
types. These types of DACs tend to be much larger than the more popular
Sigma/Delta types.

>
I don't agree on this. I have a cheap delta-sigma DAC which I built myself based on a PCM5102 which sounds better than anything I heard from any CD player yet costs only $9. Also, DSD is based on delta-sigma and its sound quality far surpasses that of any CD player.

>
**You can agree or disagree with me, if you wish. You'll still be wrong.
A GOOD quality R2R DAC is still the best.

>
I'm really amused at this statement. You're stating it as a fact when it isn't.

 
**It is, indeed, a fact. R2R DACs allow for bit perfect reproduction.
Sigma/Delta DACs can never supply a bit perfect result. Not ever.

I see now, you're a bigot.

 

>

>
Why? You may ask.
>
It's really simple: A sigma/delta DAC operates by successive
APPROXIMATION. It can only ever approximate the original musical signal.
It can never be bit perfect. OTOH, an R2R DAC is cable of reproducing
the original musical source in a bit perfect way.

>
This is pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo and utter nonsense.

 
**Umm, no. It's fact.
 
Both Delta-sigma and R2R are producing voltages that match that of the
sampled value. Delta-sigma does this by successively building up the
voltage on a capacitor using multiple fixed-sized pulses, a R2R does
this by turning on several resistors in a ladder network. It is much
more difficult to get the resistor ladder network right because of the
tolerances involved.
 
**I already explained that fact. Building a GOOD R2R DAC is, inevitably
more expensive, given the tolerance and quality of the passive
components required. The result is that a good R2R DAC will always
outperform a Sigma/Delta DAC.
 

>
Delta-sigma is generally claimed to be better at reproducing quieter signals because of its better linearity. R2R is sometimes claimed to reproduce louder passages more faithfully (I don't see a scientific reason why delta-sigma would fare worse here, though).

 
**Since only R2R DACs are capable of a bit perfect result, they will be
superior. Sigma/Delta DACs (good ones) are capable of satisfactory
results (I've used a few good ones and they sound quite good), but R2R
will always sound more accurate.
 

Again, you're stating folklore as a fact. Are you an electrical engineer? I am.

Do you really think that a companies like Sony and Philips which have been producing professional digital audio equipment for decades, would invent something like DSD, which is completely based on delta-sigma, if it were inferior to ladder-network DAC's?

>

>
FWIW: I still own a Marantz CD80, mulitbit, CD player. It sounds better
than any one of the several dozen sigma/delta DACs/players I've had in
my system. My outboard R2R DAC is even better.

>
That doesn't mean shit to me. There are many delta-sigma DAC's and CD players out there and I doubt you listened to all of them.

 
**I sure have no listened to all of them, but I have heard quite a few.
 

Not enough of them it seems. Buy a SACD player and tell me how bad delta-sigma sounds.