Re: Operating temperature derating

On 6/13/2024 7:02 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:

I've never heard of lower level software being compromised at high temperatures so basic phone calls would be ok but action video games would run slower.

>
The fact that the phone (and other exemplars) operates outside of its
"operating range" confirms there is margin in the design.  We know that. > But, no one seems to know *what* this margin is.  (It's not just

phones but

almost all consumer kit -- excepting those for which NO operating/storage
conditions are specified!)
>
This suggests that it is NOT a part of the design process but, rather,
"whatever it is, it is".
>
If I tried to make a call and the phone was 160F -- because it sat in my
car for three hours in the sun -- would it work?  Is there ANYONE at Apple
who could answer that question?

 160F is 71C so the the circuitry I was involved with could be guaranteed to work provided the internal temperature of the phone was not significantly higher than that 160F.
 I believe similar limits would apply to other parts of the phone.
 However if the internal temperature had been raised significantly by any internal power dissipation then all bets are off.
 CPUs are especially challenging as they can dissipate 5-10 Watts at extremes - there is no room for anything in the way of heat sinks or fans etc. The best they can do is to thermally couple them to the case.
 The power amplifiers in the RF section are also significant heat generating items.
 Your question has a multi-dimensional answer, it depends upon a host of other things including the recent usage of the phone.

Of course!  And, I am just using phones as an example as they are ubiquitous.
If you wander around your home, there are undoubtedly countless items that
all have real limits on their operation -- yet DETERMINING those would be
difficult (especially if you wanted to know REAL limits and not just
PUBLISHED limits)

A phone could be designed to guarantee operation at the temperatures you state but that phone would certainly cost more, be physically larger, heavier etc. The current specifications have been accepted as adequate by the majority of customers. Probably there do exist ones with extended environmental specs for specialized applications such as the military where that is more important than cost, weight, size etc.

But that's exactly my point!  The phone, AS DOCUMENTED, is considerably less
capable than it is, in reality!  If it adhered to its published specifications,
I suspect a good many people would not use it -- because they routinely
encounter conditions that exceed those published for the phone.
SOMEONE (at Apple) knows this to be the case as they wouldn't market
a product that had millions of users complaining that their phones stopped
working in the summer (winter?) months.

If you want to improve the likelihood that your phone works when you need it - don't leave it lying in sun. Even in a hot car some places are cooler than others.

Of course.  I've used this as an example of how WIDE the margin is in
the phone's design (*my* phone isn't an iPhone).  I doubt many people
worry that the car interior may get too hot for their phones -- because
most people have never had a phone refuse to operate due to temperature
extremes!

We expect cars to continue to operate in those temperatures.  What's the
criteria that we use to determine what should and shouldn't be expected
to remain operational?

>
Automotive devices that expect to be in the engine compartment are designed for -40C to +125C or +150C.

>
The devices I mentioned are located in the *passenger* compartment.
What value an engine compartment that can't be *controlled* by devices
in the passenger compartment?  :>

 I've also worked in some aspects of automobile design and there were multiple environmental zones defined - the cabin being the most benign.
 Probably parts there are specified to 105C. Although it can get pretty toasty at the top of the dashboard.

Dash gets up above 160.  I've been amused that the ambient temperature
sensor is so acurate -- yet "sees" the heat reflected off the (180F)
pavement!  Clearly some "engineering" at play, there.

Will the GPS operate when the vehicle's interior reaches 160F?  What about
the roadside assistance feature?  Backup camera?  Will the electronics that
govern the cycling of the air conditioning compressor function?  Do you recall
ever hearing someone complain of the electronics in their vehicles NOT working
when they returned to their parked vehicle after work?  ("margin")

 The temperature is not uniform in the car and often electronics are placed in areas where they won't reach the high temperatures you mention - in some of my cars for example the electronics were under the seats or behind the glovebox.

Yes, but over the course of an 8 hour "work day" (baking in the sun), I
suspect there are no "refuges" in the vehicle's interior.  If the air
temperature is 113, then the car *will* climb to 113, over time.
(It will *drop* to 90 degrees after 10PM, tonight -- and today was relatively
cool -- just barely 100F)

The fact that the car manufacturers recognized these some devices WOULD fail
(and added a variety of idiot lights on the dash to signify those failures)
suggests they either couldn't make them operate over these extremes *or*
couldn't AFFORD to make them operate over these extremes.
>
But, as a buyer looking to drop $50+K on a vehicle, what assurances do
you have that those systems (for which you are paying additional monies)
WILL operate when you are the vehicle's owner?  If they won't operate
when the vehicle is sitting on the *dealer's* lot, will they operate when
the vehicle is sitting in the grocery store's lot?  Your employer's lot?
Your driveway?  On the highway?  (etc)

 Modern cars are impressively reliable but they may not be guaranteed to operate over the full gamut of environmental conditions and usage. They just have meet the great majority of the customers' expectations.

If you are charging a premium for certain technology features, it seems
like you would take steps to ensure that they *worked* in every market
in which they were offered.
As I said, I stepped behind the wheel of certain vehicles and watched
failure indicators illuminate in rapid succession:  "That's because
the car is in the sun..."  "Ah, OK.  So, if I want those features, I
should keep the car in the shade?  How do I do that on the roadways?"

Vendors seem to treat *consumers* as ignorant dweebs; the same sorts of
hand-waving wouldn't be tolerated by an industrial/commercial customer!

 The market decides. Price is a dominant factor in vehicle sales.

Price is a dominant factor in *many* decisions.  Until performance
problems capture headlines.  I'm sure the airlines that bought
Boeing products did so largely on price/performance/reputation issues...
Consumers tend to be largely ignorant of product capabilities and
limitations.  They buy *features* -- without even guarantees that
those features work!  And, because they often don't understand
what they have bought, they are never quite sure that a problem
is "theirs" or the *device's*