Re: Privilege Levels Below User

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Sujet : Re: Privilege Levels Below User
De : anton (at) *nospam* mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 10. Jun 2024, 17:23:51
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID : <2024Jun10.172351@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
References : 1 2 3 4 5
User-Agent : xrn 10.11
EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes:
PAL code is stored an a writable control store that
is a separate address space from main memory

Given the way that it (the EV45 PAL code) implements the PAL-call IMB,
i.e., by executing enough code to flush the I-cache, means that the
PAL-code is loaded into the I-cache, so I expect that it resides in
normal RAM.  If that was in a separate memory space, there would need
to be an additional bit in each I-cache tag that records this fact.

But I came to realize that none of that is actually *required*.
It doesn't *need* a third privilege mode, and actually it looks
more expensive performance wise to have one than not.
It would be simpler and cheaper to just transition directly
to and from Super mode without also going through PAL mode.
And there is NO technical reason to restrict access to HW control
register from Super mode.
>
Many processors automatically disable interrupts on trap because it
greatly simplifies the race conditions in their prologue and epilogue.
x86 did not disable interrupts on exceptions but x64 allows it as an option.
>
PAL mode does not require its own on-chip SRAM - it could exist in main
memory addressed through a base physical register or an MMU hack.
And having a dedicated private on-chip SRAM to hold critical OS code
does not mean that it is microcode. I would have this for my design
with an MMU fiddle to hard-wire a VA->PA mapping for some OS code.
>
After realizing it didn't need to exist, and that PAL mode looks more
expensive than just User/Super modes, I began to wonder why it was there.
Which leads me to here:
>
(I think PAL mode was a way to patent a feature that made the
ISA impossible to copy without their permission,

Not really.  If there was a patent that is specific to it being a
different address space or a dedicated private on-chip SRAM, that
patent could be easily circumvented by the Amdahl-alike by putting the
PAL-code in RAM and using a base register or MMU hack, as you
describe.

Also if there was enough room for more on-chip SRAM on any of the
Alpha chips, the designers would have used that room to put in
features that make the chip faster.

Given that ARM is able to charge an architecture licensing fee for the
instruction set alone, I am sure that DEC had enough patents on its
instruction set, no need for unnecessary and circumventable
implementation ideas.

One other thing they did: they had one PAL code coming with the SRM
console for VMS and Digital OSF/1, and another PAL code with the
ARC/AlphaBIOS console for Windows NT and Linux.  This allowed them to
charge extra (quite a lot) for hardware capable of running their
premium OSs, while providing almost competetive prices for hardware
running PC OSs.  Unfortunately, the PC-like package was still not
price/performance competetive, and AlphaBIOS (which we had on our EV56
boxes) was a horror to work with.

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Date Sujet#  Auteur
7 Jun 24 * Privilege Levels Below User116John Savard
7 Jun 24 +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1MitchAlsup1
7 Jun 24 +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User9MitchAlsup1
9 Jun 24 i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User8John Savard
10 Jun 24 i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User7Lawrence D'Oliveiro
10 Jun 24 i  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User6John Savard
10 Jun 24 i   +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 24 i   i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2John Savard
11 Jun 24 i   ii`- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 i   i`- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 i   `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Jun 24 +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Jun 24 i+- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1John Dallman
8 Jun 24 i`* Re: Not history, Privilege Levels Below User2John Levine
9 Jun 24 i `- Re: Not history, Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Jun 24 +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User65MitchAlsup1
9 Jun 24 i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User13Lawrence D'Oliveiro
9 Jun 24 ii+- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1David Schultz
10 Jun 24 ii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User11Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 ii +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 ii `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User9John Levine
12 Jun 24 ii  `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User8Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 ii   `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User7John Levine
12 Jun 24 ii    +- Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 ii    `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User5Lynn Wheeler
13 Jun 24 ii     `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 Jun 24 ii      `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User3Lynn Wheeler
13 Jun 24 ii       `* Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 Jun 24 ii        `- Re: time-sharing history, Privilege Levels Below User1Lynn Wheeler
9 Jun 24 i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Anton Ertl
10 Jun 24 ii`- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
10 Jun 24 i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User8Anton Ertl
11 Jun 24 ii+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 iii+- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 iii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Thomas Koenig
12 Jun 24 iii `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 ii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 ii +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1George Neuner
12 Jun 24 ii `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1John Dallman
10 Jun 24 i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User15Terje Mathisen
10 Jun 24 ii+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Michael S
11 Jun 24 iii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 iii `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2MitchAlsup1
12 Jun 24 iii  `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Jun 24 ii+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Jun 24 iii+- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 Jun 24 iii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3MitchAlsup1
13 Jun 24 iii `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 Jun 24 iii  `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Michael S
11 Jun 24 ii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User5Terje Mathisen
11 Jun 24 ii `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Michael S
12 Jun 24 ii  +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Stefan Monnier
13 Jun 24 ii  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 Jun 24 ii   `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 Jun 24 i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User26Paul A. Clayton
14 Jun 24 i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User25MitchAlsup1
14 Jun 24 i  +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 Jun 24 i  i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3John Savard
14 Jun 24 i  i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Jun 24 i  i  `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1John Dallman
14 Jun 24 i  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User20John Savard
15 Jun 24 i   `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User19Thomas Koenig
15 Jun 24 i    `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User18Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Jun 24 i     +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3Anton Ertl
15 Jun 24 i     i+- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Thomas Koenig
16 Jun 24 i     i`- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Jun 24 i     `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User14John Dallman
16 Jun 24 i      +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User12Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Jun 24 i      i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User11Michael S
16 Jun 24 i      i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User10Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Jun 24 i      i  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User9Michael S
16 Jun 24 i      i   +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3Thomas Koenig
16 Jun 24 i      i   i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Michael S
16 Jun 24 i      i   i `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Terje Mathisen
16 Jun 24 i      i   `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Jun 24 i      i    `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User4Michael S
16 Jun 24 i      i     +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Jun 24 i      i     `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Torbjorn Lindgren
17 Jun 24 i      i      `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Jun 24 i      `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Robert Swindells
8 Jun 24 +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User7BGB
9 Jun 24 i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3MitchAlsup1
9 Jun 24 ii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2BGB
10 Jun 24 ii `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
10 Jun 24 i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3Terje Mathisen
10 Jun 24 i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2Anton Ertl
10 Jun 24 i  `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1BGB
8 Jun 24 +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Chris M. Thomasson
9 Jun 24 +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2John Savard
11 Jun 24 i`- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
9 Jun 24 `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User26John Savard
9 Jun 24  +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User23Anton Ertl
9 Jun 24  i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User22John Savard
9 Jun 24  i +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1MitchAlsup1
10 Jun 24  i `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User20Anton Ertl
10 Jun 24  i  +- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 24  i  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User18John Savard
11 Jun 24  i   +* Re: Privilege Levels Below User12MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 24  i   i+* Re: Privilege Levels Below User3MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 24  i   ii`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2John Savard
11 Jun 24  i   ii `- Re: Privilege Levels Below User1MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 24  i   i`* Re: Privilege Levels Below User8John Savard
11 Jun 24  i   `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User5Niklas Holsti
9 Jun 24  `* Re: Privilege Levels Below User2MitchAlsup1

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