Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 360

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Sujet : Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 360
De : jgd (at) *nospam* cix.co.uk (John Dallman)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 30. Jun 2024, 18:38:29
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <memo.20240630183839.956d@jgd.cix.co.uk>
References : 1
In article <v5s173$jl70$1@dont-email.me>, SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid
(Stephen Fuld) wrote:

John Dallman wrote:

Virtual memory was pretty new technology at the time, and
required a disk or drum. The central idea of /360 was having
the same ISA across a wide range of machines, and virtual
memory wasn't affordable at the low end at the time, AFAICS.
 
But IIRC even low end S/360s required a disk, at least to IPL(boot)
from.

Are you sure? Per Wikipedia, the lowest-end real S/360, the Model 30,
could run with only card equipment, running BPS, or with only tape drives,
under TOS.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30#System_software>

BOS was a really minimal OS for an 8KB RAM machine with one disc drive,
and DOS was less minimal.

The Model 30 was apparently one of the most popular machines in the early
days of S/360. Being able to build such small machines was a strong
commercial consideration for the company, and thus the architecture.

But Virtual memory is more expensive than the hidden base
registers, as you need page tables. probably a TLB, etc.

Yup, and it pushes up the minimum amount of RAM you need.

So the problem wasn't with MFT memory management APIs or their
implementation, but that a /360 site had to find a set of
partition sizes that allowed for all the combinations of
programs that they needed to run simultaneously. This was
inevitably wasteful of memory, because each partition had
to allow for the largest program that could be required to
run in it.
 
Is that correct?
 
That is correct for OS/MFT, but not for OS/MVT.

Right. And MVT had dynamic memory allocation, but since it used direct
physical addresses, it suffered progressive fragmentation, and would
presumably have to be IPL'ed at intervals?

John

Date Sujet#  Auteur
20 Jun 24 * ARM is channeling the IBM 360102John Savard
20 Jun 24 +* Re: ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36095John Levine
21 Jun 24 i`* Re: ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36094Lynn Wheeler
24 Jun 24 i `* Re: ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36093Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Jun 24 i  +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36090John Levine
24 Jun 24 i  i+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36087Lynn Wheeler
24 Jun 24 i  ii+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36082Lawrence D'Oliveiro
25 Jun 24 i  iii`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36081John Levine
25 Jun 24 i  iii +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36073Lawrence D'Oliveiro
25 Jun 24 i  iii i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36072Stephen Fuld
25 Jun 24 i  iii i +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36064Stephen Fuld
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36063Stephen Fuld
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36062Lawrence D'Oliveiro
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i  +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36057John Levine
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36056Lawrence D'Oliveiro
27 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36055John Levine
27 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i  `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36054MitchAlsup1
28 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i   `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36053Lawrence D'Oliveiro
28 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i    +- Re: TSS I/O, ancient OS history1John Levine
28 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i    `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36051MitchAlsup1
28 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i     `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36050Lawrence D'Oliveiro
29 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i      `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36049Stephen Fuld
29 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i       `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36048John Levine
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36032Lawrence D'Oliveiro
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i+- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36030Stephen Fuld
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36024Lawrence D'Oliveiro
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i i+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36022Lynn Wheeler
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36021John Dallman
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36019Thomas Koenig
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3608Michael S
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii ii+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3606Thomas Koenig
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii iii+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604Stephen Fuld
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii iiii`* Re: base registers, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3603John Levine
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii iiii `* Re: base registers, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii iiii  `- Re: base registers, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601John Levine
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii iii`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii ii`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36010John Dallman
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i +- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3608Stephen Fuld
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  +- Re: small old machines, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601John Levine
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604John Dallman
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  i+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Stephen Fuld
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  ii`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601John Dallman
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  i`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lynn Wheeler
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i  `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602MitchAlsup1
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii i   `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601moi
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i ii `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lynn Wheeler
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        i i`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Stephen Fuld
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3605Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i  `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604John Levine
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i   `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3603Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i    `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602John Levine
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i        i     `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Dan Cross
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i        `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36015Anton Ertl
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i         `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36014Anton Ertl
30 Jun 24 i  iii i i  i          `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36013John Levine
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           +* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 36010MitchAlsup1
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i`* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling9John Levine
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling8MitchAlsup1
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i  `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling7John Levine
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i   +* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i   i`- Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling1John Levine
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i   `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling4Michael S
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i    `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling3MitchAlsup1
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i     +- Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling1Michael S
2 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           i     `- Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling1Michael S
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i           `* Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Jul 24 i  iii i i  i            `- Re: streams and file locks, ancient OS history1John Levine
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i  `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604Stephen Fuld
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i   +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602John Levine
26 Jun 24 i  iii i i   i`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Stephen Fuld
27 Jun 24 i  iii i i   `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
26 Jun 24 i  iii i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3607John Levine
26 Jun 24 i  iii i  `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3606John Levine
27 Jun 24 i  iii i   `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3605Thomas Koenig
27 Jun 24 i  iii i    `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604John Levine
27 Jun 24 i  iii i     +- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Thomas Koenig
28 Jun 24 i  iii i     +- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lawrence D'Oliveiro
28 Jun 24 i  iii i     `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lawrence D'Oliveiro
25 Jun 24 i  iii +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3606Terje Mathisen
25 Jun 24 i  iii i+* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Lawrence D'Oliveiro
25 Jun 24 i  iii ii`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Terje Mathisen
25 Jun 24 i  iii i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3603Michael S
26 Jun 24 i  iii i `* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Michael S
26 Jun 24 i  iii i  `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Terje Mathisen
25 Jun 24 i  iii `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lynn Wheeler
24 Jun 24 i  ii`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3604Terje Mathisen
24 Jun 24 i  ii +* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Jun 24 i  ii i`- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Stephen Fuld
24 Jun 24 i  ii `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Thomas Koenig
24 Jun 24 i  i`* Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Thomas Koenig
24 Jun 24 i  i `- Re: ancient OS history, ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Jun 24 i  `* Re: ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3602Stephen Fuld
24 Jun 24 i   `- Re: ARM is sort of channeling the IBM 3601Stephen Fuld
20 Jun 24 +* Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3602moi
24 Jun 24 i`- Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3601Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 Jun 24 `* Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3604MitchAlsup1
22 Jun 24  `* Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3603John Dallman
22 Jun 24   +- Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3601MitchAlsup1
22 Jun 24   `- Re: ARM is channeling the IBM 3601BGB

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