Re: Byte ordering

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Sujet : Re: Byte ordering
De : jgd (at) *nospam* cix.co.uk (John Dallman)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 08. Oct 2024, 22:28:18
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <memo.20241008222803.19028a@jgd.cix.co.uk>
References : 1
In article <vdvvae$1k931$2@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:

Dave Cutler came from DEC (where he was one of the resident
Unix-haters) to mastermind the Windows NT project in 1988. When did
the OS/2-NT pivot take place?

1990, after the release of Windows 3.0, which was an immediate commercial
success. It was the first version that you could get serious work out of.
It's been compared to a camel: a vicious brute at times, but capable of
doing a lot of carrying.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2#1990:_Breakup>

Funny, you'd think they would use that same _personality_ system to
implement WSL1, the Linux-emulation layer. But they didn't.

They were called subsystems in Windows NT, and ran on top of the NT
kernel. The POSIX one came first, and was very limited, followed by the
Interix one that was called Windows Services for Unix. Programs for both
of these were in PE-COFF format, not ELF. There was also the OS/2
subsystem, but it only ran text-mode programs.

The POSIX subsystem was there to meet US government purchasing
requirements, not to be used for anything serious. I can't imagine Dave
Cutler was keen on it.

WSL1 seems to have been something odd: rather than a single subsystem, a
bunch of mini-subsystems. However, VMS/NT kernels just have different
assumptions about programs from Unix-style kernels, so they went to
lightweight virtualisation in WSL2.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux#History>

The same problem seems to have messed up all the attempts to provide good
Unix emulation on VMS. It's notable that MICA started out trying to
provide both VMS and Unix APIs, but this was dropped in favour of a
separate Unix OS before MICA was cancelled.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_MICA#Design_goals>

I think the whole _personality_ concept, along with the supposed
portability to non-x86 architectures, had just bit-rotted away by
that point.

Some combination of that, Microsoft confidence that "of course we can do
something better now!" - they are very prone to overconfidence - and the
terrible tendency of programmers to ignore the details of the old code.

John

Date Sujet#  Auteur
16 Apr 24 * Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)237Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Apr 24 `* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)236David Brown
16 Apr 24  +- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1MitchAlsup1
26 May 24  +- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1MitchAlsup1
1 Oct 24  `* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)233MitchAlsup1
1 Oct 24   `* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)232Thomas Koenig
1 Oct 24    +* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)225MitchAlsup1
2 Oct 24    i+* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)223Brett
3 Oct 24    ii`* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)222Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Oct 24    ii +- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1Brett
3 Oct 24    ii +- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1Anton Ertl
3 Oct 24    ii `* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)219David Brown
3 Oct 24    ii  `* Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)218Anton Ertl
3 Oct 24    ii   +- Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)1David Brown
4 Oct 24    ii   +* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)215Lawrence D'Oliveiro
4 Oct 24    ii   i+- Re: Byte ordering1Lynn Wheeler
4 Oct 24    ii   i+* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)211David Brown
4 Oct 24    ii   ii`* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)210Anton Ertl
4 Oct 24    ii   ii +* Re: Byte ordering5BGB
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i`* Re: Byte ordering4MitchAlsup1
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i +* Re: Byte ordering2BGB
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i i`- Re: Byte ordering1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i `- Re: Byte ordering1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Oct 24    ii   ii +* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)13Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i`* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)12Brett
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)11Anton Ertl
5 Oct 24    ii   ii i  `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)10Michael S
6 Oct 24    ii   ii i   +- Re: Byte ordering1Terje Mathisen
6 Oct 24    ii   ii i   `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)8Brett
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i    `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)7Lawrence D'Oliveiro
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i     `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)6Brett
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i      `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)5Michael S
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i       +* Re: Byte ordering2Stefan Monnier
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i       i`- Re: Byte ordering1Michael S
7 Oct 24    ii   ii i       `* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii i        `- Re: Byte ordering1Terje Mathisen
6 Oct 24    ii   ii `* Re: Byte ordering191David Brown
6 Oct 24    ii   ii  `* Re: Byte ordering190Anton Ertl
6 Oct 24    ii   ii   `* Re: Byte ordering189John Dallman
7 Oct 24    ii   ii    +* Re: Byte ordering20Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii    i`* Re: Byte ordering19John Dallman
9 Oct 24    ii   ii    i +- VMS/NT memory management (was: Byte ordering)1Stefan Monnier
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i +* Re: Byte ordering2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i i`- Re: Byte ordering1MitchAlsup1
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i `* Re: Byte ordering15Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  +* Re: Byte ordering3Michael S
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  i+- Re: Byte ordering1John Dallman
18 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  i`- Re: Byte ordering1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
15 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  +* Re: Byte ordering9John Dallman
16 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  i+* Re: Byte ordering7George Neuner
16 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii`* Re: Byte ordering6Terje Mathisen
16 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii `* Re: Byte ordering5David Brown
17 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii  +* Re: Byte ordering2George Neuner
17 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii  i`- Re: Byte ordering1David Brown
17 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii  `* Re: clouds, not Byte ordering2John Levine
17 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  ii   `- Re: clouds, not Byte ordering1David Brown
18 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  i`- Re: Byte ordering1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
16 Oct 24    ii   ii    i  `* Re: Byte ordering2Paul A. Clayton
18 Oct 24    ii   ii    i   `- Re: Microkernels & Capabilities (was Re: Byte ordering)1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
7 Oct 24    ii   ii    `* 80286 protected mode168Anton Ertl
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     +* Re: 80286 protected mode5Lars Poulsen
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     i`* Re: 80286 protected mode4Terje Mathisen
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     i +- Re: 80286 protected mode1Michael S
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     i `* Re: 80286 protected mode2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  `- Re: 80286 protected mode1Terje Mathisen
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     +* Re: 80286 protected mode3Brett
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     i`* Re: 80286 protected mode2Michael S
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     i `- Re: 80286 protected mode1Brett
7 Oct 24    ii   ii     +- Re: 80286 protected mode1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     +* Re: 80286 protected mode152MitchAlsup1
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     i+* Re: 80286 protected mode4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     ii`* Re: 80286 protected mode3MitchAlsup1
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     ii +- Re: 80286 protected mode1David Brown
15 Oct 24    ii   ii     ii `- Re: 80286 protected mode1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     i`* Re: 80286 protected mode147Anton Ertl
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     i +- Re: 80286 protected mode1Robert Finch
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     i `* Re: 80286 protected mode145David Brown
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  +* Re: 80286 protected mode79MitchAlsup1
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i`* Re: 80286 protected mode78David Brown
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i `* Re: 80286 protected mode77Stephen Fuld
10 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i  +* Re: 80286 protected mode2MitchAlsup1
10 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i  i`- Re: 80286 protected mode1David Brown
10 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i  +- Re: 80286 protected mode1David Brown
11 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i  `* Re: 80286 protected mode73Tim Rentsch
15 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i   `* Re: 80286 protected mode72Stefan Monnier
15 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    +* Re: 80286 protected mode30MitchAlsup1
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    i+* Re: 80286 protected mode25MitchAlsup1
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    ii+* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode13John Levine
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii+* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode7MitchAlsup1
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii`* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode6John Levine
17 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii `* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode5Thomas Koenig
20 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii  `* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii   `* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode3George Neuner
22 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii    `* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode2Tim Rentsch
22 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iiii     `- Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode1George Neuner
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii+- Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode1David Brown
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii`* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode4Paul A. Clayton
17 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii +- Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode1David Brown
20 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii `* Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    iii  `- Re: C and turtles, 80286 protected mode1Paul A. Clayton
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    ii+* Re: 80286 protected mode7Thomas Koenig
17 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    ii+* Re: 80286 protected mode3George Neuner
17 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    ii`- Re: 80286 protected mode1Tim Rentsch
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    i+* Re: 80286 protected mode3David Brown
17 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    i`- Re: 80286 protected mode1Tim Rentsch
16 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  i    `* Re: 80286 protected mode41David Brown
9 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  +* Re: 80286 protected mode51Thomas Koenig
13 Oct 24    ii   ii     i  `* Re: 80286 protected mode14Anton Ertl
8 Oct 24    ii   ii     `* Re: 80286 protected mode6John Levine
6 Oct 24    ii   i`* Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)2Michael S
4 Oct 24    ii   `- Re: Byte ordering (was: Whether something is RISC or not)1John Dallman
2 Oct 24    i`- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1Thomas Koenig
2 Oct 24    +* Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)5David Schultz
3 Oct 24    `- Re: Whether something is RISC or not (Re: PDP-8 theology, not Concertina II Progress)1Lawrence D'Oliveiro

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