Re: The Design of Design

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Sujet : Re: The Design of Design
De : tr.17687 (at) *nospam* z991.linuxsc.com (Tim Rentsch)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 06. May 2024, 23:45:51
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <86edaetv8g.fsf@linuxsc.com>
References : 1 2 3
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"Stephen Fuld" <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> writes:

Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
snip
>
Personally I think his assessment of JCL is harsher than it
deserves.  Don't get me wrong, JCL is not my idea of a great
control language, but it was usable enough in the environment
that customers were used to.
>
From 1972-1979 I worked at a site that had boh S/360s (mostly /65s)
running OS/MVT, and Univac 1108s running Exec 8.  I used both,
though did mostly 1108 stuff.
>
For several reasons, JCL was terrible.  One was its seemingly
needless obscurity.  For example, IIRC the program name of the COBOL
compiler was ICKFBL00.  In contrast, the COBOL compiler under Exec 8
was called COB.  It aalso lacked intelligent defaults, which made a
it more cumbersome to use.  But this was mostly hidden due to a much
bigger problem.
>
Perhaps due to the architectures inability to swap a program out and
reload it to any real address other than the one it had originally,
all resources to be used had to be avaable at the beginning of the
job, so all JCL was scanned at the beginning of the job, and no
"dynamic" allocations were possible.
>
So, for example, the COBOL compiler needed, besides the input file
name, IIRC four scratch files, an output file and a place to put the
(spooled)print listing.  These must be explicitly described (JCL DD
commands) in the JCL for the job, Similarly for other programs.
This was so inconvenient that IBM provided "Procedures" (essentially
JCL macros), that included all the necessry DD statements, hid the
actual program names, etc.)  Thus to compile link and execute a
COBOL program you invoked the procedure called something like
ICOBUCLG (I have forgotten exactly, but the last thre characters
were for Compile, Link, and GO).  Contrast that with the EXEC 8
command
>
 @COB programname
>
(The @ was Exec's equivalent to // to indicate a comand) The
internal scratch files were alocated internally by the compiler,
the default print output (which could be overridden) went to the
printer, the default output name (again overridable) was the same
as the input (object files and source files could have the same
name).
>
Similarly, to copy a file from one place to another, JCL required
at least two DD cards and an exec card with the program IEBGENER.
Under Exec 8, the command
>
@Copy sourcefile, destinationfile
>
was sufficient, as both files would be dynamically assigned (Exec
term) internally by the copy program, and the indicator of success
or failure went to the default print output.
>
While, as you stated, programmers dealt with this, and it worked
in batch mode.  But it clearly wouldn't work once time sharing
(called Demand in Exec terminology) became available.  Thus IBM
had to invent a whole new, incompatible set of commands for TSO.
But the Exec 8 syntax was so straightforward that users used
exactly the same commands, keyed in at the terminal as were put on
cards or a file in batch mode.  That difference persists to this
day.

I have no problem accepting all of your characterizations as
accurate.  Like I said, I'm not a fan of JCL, not at all, I just
think it wasn't as bad as the commentary in The Design of Design
makes it out to be.


The biggest fault of JCL is that it
is trying to solve the wrong problem.
>
What problem was it trying to solve and what was the "right"
problem?

The problem it was trying to solve is contained in its name:  Job
Control Language.  It tacitly accepted the non-interactive batch
model for what it needed to address.

The problem that was in need of addressing is interactive use.  I
think there are two reasons why JCL was so poor at that.  One is
that they knew that teleprocessing would be important, but they
tried to cram it into the batch processing model, rather than
understanding a more interactive work style.  The second reason is
that the culture at IBM, at least at that time, never understood the
idea that using computers can be (and should be) easy and fun.  The
B in IBM is Business, and Business isn't supposed to be fun.  And I
think that's part of why JCL was not viewed (at IBM) as a failure,
because their Business customers didn't mind.  Needless to say, I am
speculating, but for what it's worth those are my speculations.


It isn't clear that trying
to do something more ambitious would have fared any better in the
early 1960s (see also The Second System Effect in MMM).
>
Exec 8 was roughly comtemporaeous with OS/MVT.  I claim, was a
much better choice,

Let me clarify my earlier statement:  It isn't clear that >>IBM<<
trying to do something more ambitious would have fared any better
(at least not at that time).  The people who did Exec 8 didn't have
the baggage of IBM's customer model (here again I am speculating),
so it was easier for them to do a better job.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
21 Apr 24 * The Design of Design128Thomas Koenig
21 Apr 24 +* Re: The Design of Design67John Levine
25 Apr 24 i`* Re: The Design of Design66Thomas Koenig
25 Apr 24 i `* Re: The Design of Design65Stephen Fuld
26 Apr 24 i  +* Re: The Design of Design56John Levine
26 Apr 24 i  i+* Re: The Design of Design2MitchAlsup1
26 Apr 24 i  ii`- Re: The Design of Design1John Levine
26 Apr 24 i  i+* Re: The Design of Design50Thomas Koenig
26 Apr 24 i  ii+- Re: The Design of Design1Stephen Fuld
26 Apr 24 i  ii+* Re: The Design of Design47John Levine
27 Apr 24 i  iii+* Re: The Design of Design4Thomas Koenig
27 Apr 24 i  iiii`* Re: PDP-10 addressing, was The Design of Design3John Levine
27 Apr 24 i  iiii `* Re: PDP-10 addressing, was The Design of Design2MitchAlsup1
27 Apr 24 i  iiii  `- Re: PDP-10 addressing, was The Design of Design1John Levine
30 Apr 24 i  iii`* Re: The Design of Design42MitchAlsup1
30 Apr 24 i  iii +* Re: The Design of Design40John Levine
1 May 24 i  iii i`* Re: The Design of Design39Tim Rentsch
1 May 24 i  iii i `* Re: architecture, The Design of Design38John Levine
2 May 24 i  iii i  +- Re: index architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
2 May 24 i  iii i  +* Re: architecture, The Design of Design4Thomas Koenig
3 May 24 i  iii i  i+- Re: architecture, The Design of Design1MitchAlsup1
5 May 24 i  iii i  i`* Re: architecture, The Design of Design2Thomas Koenig
5 May 24 i  iii i  i `- Re: ancient 704 architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
7 May 24 i  iii i  `* Re: architecture, The Design of Design32Tim Rentsch
7 May 24 i  iii i   +- Re: architecture, The Design of Design1Thomas Koenig
7 May 24 i  iii i   +* Re: architecture, The Design of Design28Michael S
7 May 24 i  iii i   i+* Re: architecture, The Design of Design2John Levine
8 May 24 i  iii i   ii`- Re: architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
8 May 24 i  iii i   i+* Re: architecture, The Design of Design2Tim Rentsch
9 May 24 i  iii i   ii`- Re: architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
8 May 24 i  iii i   i`* Re: architecture, The Design of Design23Thomas Koenig
8 May 24 i  iii i   i `* Re: architecture, The Design of Design22Michael S
8 May 24 i  iii i   i  `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design21John Levine
9 May 24 i  iii i   i   +* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design2Lynn Wheeler
10 May 24 i  iii i   i   i`- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1Lynn Wheeler
9 May 24 i  iii i   i   `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design18Michael S
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    +* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design14Thomas Koenig
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i`* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design13Michael S
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i +* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design2Anton Ertl
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i`- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1Anton Ertl
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i +* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design9Stephen Fuld
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i+* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design2Michael S
9 May 24 i  iii i   i    i ii`- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1John Dallman
10 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i`* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design6Tim Rentsch
10 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design5Stephen Fuld
30 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i  `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design4Tim Rentsch
30 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i   `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design3Stephen Fuld
30 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i    `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design2Tim Rentsch
31 May 24 i  iii i   i    i i     `- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
10 May 24 i  iii i   i    i `- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1Tim Rentsch
10 May 24 i  iii i   i    +- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
10 May 24 i  iii i   i    `* Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design2Tim Rentsch
10 May 24 i  iii i   i     `- Re: backward architecture, The Design of Design1John Levine
7 May 24 i  iii i   `* Re: architecture, The Design of Design2Anton Ertl
8 May 24 i  iii i    `- Re: architecture, The Design of Design1Tim Rentsch
30 Apr 24 i  iii `- Re: The Design of Design1MitchAlsup1
30 Apr 24 i  ii`- Re: what's a register, The Design of Design1John Levine
26 Apr 24 i  i`* Re: The Design of Design3Stephen Fuld
26 Apr 24 i  i `* Re: The Design of Design2John Levine
26 Apr 24 i  i  `- Re: The Design of Design1Stephen Fuld
27 Apr 24 i  +* Re: The Design of Design7Thomas Koenig
27 Apr 24 i  i+- Re: The Design of Design1Stephen Fuld
27 Apr 24 i  i+* Re: The Design of Design2John Levine
27 Apr 24 i  ii`- Re: The Design of Design1Thomas Koenig
28 Apr 24 i  i`* Re: The Design of Design3Tim Rentsch
29 Apr 24 i  i `* Re: antitrust history, The Design of Design2John Levine
1 May 24 i  i  `- Re: antitrust history, The Design of Design1Tim Rentsch
29 Apr 24 i  `- Re: The Design of Design1Tim Rentsch
29 Apr 24 `* Re: The Design of Design60Tim Rentsch
1 May 24  `* Re: The Design of Design59Stephen Fuld
1 May 24   +* Re: JCL, The Design of Design3John Levine
1 May 24   i`* Re: JCL, The Design of Design2Stephen Fuld
1 May 24   i `- Re: JCL, The Design of Design1Stephen Fuld
1 May 24   +- Re: The Design of Design1MitchAlsup1
1 May 24   +- Re: The Design of Design1Thomas Koenig
7 May 24   `* Re: The Design of Design53Tim Rentsch
7 May 24    +* Re: The Design of Design45Stephen Fuld
7 May 24    i+- Re: The Design of Design1Thomas Koenig
7 May 24    i+* Re: The Design of Design33Stephen Fuld
7 May 24    ii+* Re: The Design of Design29Thomas Koenig
7 May 24    iii`* Re: The Design of Design28Stephen Fuld
7 May 24    iii +* Re: interative use, The Design of Design25John Levine
7 May 24    iii i+* Re: interative use, The Design of Design4MitchAlsup1
8 May 24    iii ii`* Re: third system syndrome, interactive use, The Design of Design3John Levine
8 May 24    iii ii `* Re: third system syndrome, interactive use, The Design of Design2Lynn Wheeler
9 May 24    iii ii  `- Re: third system syndrome, interactive use, The Design of Design1Lynn Wheeler
8 May 24    iii i`* Re: interative use, The Design of Design20Stephen Fuld
8 May 24    iii i `* Re: interative use, The Design of Design19John Levine
9 May 24    iii i  `* Re: interative use, The Design of Design18Stephen Fuld
10 May 24    iii i   `* Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design17John Levine
10 May 24    iii i    +- Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design1Stephen Fuld
11 May 24    iii i    `* Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design15Thomas Koenig
11 May 24    iii i     +* Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design3MitchAlsup1
12 May 24    iii i     i`* Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design2Thomas Koenig
13 May 24    iii i     i `- Re: address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design1MitchAlsup1
11 May 24    iii i     `* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design11John Levine
12 May 24    iii i      `* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design10Thomas Koenig
13 May 24    iii i       `* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design9John Levine
13 May 24    iii i        `* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design8Thomas Koenig
13 May 24    iii i         `* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design7John Levine
13 May 24    iii i          +* Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design4MitchAlsup1
14 May 24    iii i          +- Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design1Thomas Koenig
25 May 24    iii i          `- Re: branch address architecture, not interactive use, The Design of Design1Anton Ertl
8 May 24    iii `* Re: The Design of Design2Thomas Koenig
10 May 24    ii`* Re: The Design of Design3Tim Rentsch
30 May 24    i`* Re: The Design of Design10Tim Rentsch
7 May 24    `* Re: The Design of Design7Thomas Koenig

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