Memory ordering (was: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later)

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Sujet : Memory ordering (was: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later)
De : anton (at) *nospam* mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 29. Jul 2024, 15:10:26
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID : <2024Jul29.161026@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
References : 1 2 3 4 5
User-Agent : xrn 10.11
"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> writes:
On 7/26/2024 10:00 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> writes:
[...]
By contrast, one can design hardware for strong ordering such that the
slowness occurs only in those cases when actual (not potential)
communication between the cores happens, i.e., much less frequently.
 
and sometimes use cases do not care if they encounter "stale" data.
 
Great.  Unless these "sometimes" cases are more often than the cases
where you perform some atomic operation or barrier because of
potential, but not actual communication between cores, the weak model
is still slower than a well-implemented strong model.
>
A strong model? You mean I don't have to use any memory barriers at all?

In the paragraph above I had a weaker model and a stronger model in
mind, where the stronger model needs fewer barriers and atomic
operations than the weak model.

But sure, sequential consistency does not require any memory barriers,
so that would be the ultimate strong model, and, if implemented
efficiently, would beat the weaker TSO, just as an efficiently
implemented TSO beats weaker models.

Tell that to SPARC in RMO mode...

What about it?  If you mean that SPARC in TSO mode is slower, that may
be the case.  That's why I specified "well-implemented" above.

Even the x86 requires a
membar when a store followed by a load to another location shall be
respected wrt order.

So "the x86" (whatever you mean by that) is not sequentially
consistent.

I
thought it was easier for a HW guy to implement weak consistency? At the
cost of the increased complexity wrt programming the sucker! ;^)

Yes, that's why the hardware people love to give us weak consistency.
It's our job to say no and tell them to finish the job.

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Date Sujet#  Auteur
24 Jul 24 * Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later63MitchAlsup1
25 Jul 24 `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later62BGB
25 Jul 24  +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later57Chris M. Thomasson
26 Jul 24  i`* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later56Anton Ertl
26 Jul 24  i +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later20BGB
29 Jul 24  i i`* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later19Anton Ertl
29 Jul 24  i i +* Intel overvoltage (was: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later)2Thomas Koenig
29 Jul 24  i i i`- Re: Intel overvoltage1BGB
29 Jul 24  i i `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later16BGB
30 Jul 24  i i  `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later15Anton Ertl
30 Jul 24  i i   `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later14BGB
30 Jul 24  i i    +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2Chris M. Thomasson
31 Jul 24  i i    i`- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1BGB
1 Aug 24  i i    `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later11Anton Ertl
1 Aug 24  i i     +- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Michael S
1 Aug 24  i i     +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later8MitchAlsup1
1 Aug 24  i i     i+- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Michael S
2 Aug 24  i i     i`* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later6MitchAlsup1
2 Aug 24  i i     i +- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Michael S
4 Aug 24  i i     i `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later4MitchAlsup1
5 Aug 24  i i     i  `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later3Stephen Fuld
5 Aug 24  i i     i   `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2Stephen Fuld
5 Aug 24  i i     i    `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1MitchAlsup1
1 Aug 24  i i     `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1BGB
26 Jul 24  i +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later20MitchAlsup1
27 Jul 24  i i+- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1BGB
29 Jul 24  i i`* Memory ordering (was: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later)18Anton Ertl
29 Jul 24  i i +* Re: Memory ordering15MitchAlsup1
29 Jul 24  i i i+* Re: Memory ordering6Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i i ii`* Re: Memory ordering5MitchAlsup1
30 Jul 24  i i ii `* Re: Memory ordering4Michael S
31 Jul 24  i i ii  `* Re: Memory ordering3Chris M. Thomasson
31 Jul 24  i i ii   `* Re: Memory ordering2Chris M. Thomasson
31 Jul 24  i i ii    `- Re: Memory ordering1Chris M. Thomasson
30 Jul 24  i i i`* Re: Memory ordering8Anton Ertl
30 Jul 24  i i i +* Re: Memory ordering2Chris M. Thomasson
30 Jul 24  i i i i`- Re: Memory ordering1Chris M. Thomasson
31 Jul 24  i i i `* Re: Memory ordering5MitchAlsup1
31 Jul 24  i i i  +- Re: Memory ordering1Chris M. Thomasson
1 Aug 24  i i i  `* Re: Memory ordering3Anton Ertl
1 Aug 24  i i i   `* Re: Memory ordering2MitchAlsup1
2 Aug 24  i i i    `- Re: Memory ordering1Anton Ertl
29 Jul 24  i i `* Re: Memory ordering2Chris M. Thomasson
30 Jul 24  i i  `- Re: Memory ordering1Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later13Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i i+* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later9BGB
29 Jul 24  i ii`* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later8Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i ii +- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i ii +* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2BGB
29 Jul 24  i ii i`- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Chris M. Thomasson
30 Jul 24  i ii `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later4jseigh
30 Jul 24  i ii  `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later3Chris M. Thomasson
31 Jul 24  i ii   `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2jseigh
31 Jul 24  i ii    `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Chris M. Thomasson
29 Jul 24  i i+- Memory ordering (was: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later)1Anton Ertl
29 Jul 24  i i`* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2MitchAlsup1
29 Jul 24  i i `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1BGB
6 Aug 24  i `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2Chris M. Thomasson
6 Aug 24  i  `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1Chris M. Thomasson
26 Jul 24  `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later4MitchAlsup1
27 Jul 24   +- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1BGB
28 Jul 24   `* Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later2Paul A. Clayton
28 Jul 24    `- Re: Arguments for a sane ISA 6-years later1MitchAlsup1

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