Re: Fortran was NOT higher level than C. Was: Computer architects leaving Intel...

Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> schrieb:

On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 20:05:14 -0000 (UTC)
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> schrieb:

My impression - based on hearsay for Rust as I have no experience
- is that the key point of Rust is memory "safety".  I use
scare-quotes here, since it is simply about correct use of dynamic
memory and buffers.
>
It is entirely possible to have correct use of memory in C, 

>
If you look at the evolution of programming languages,
"higher-level" doesn't mean "you can do more stuff".  On the
contrary, making a language "higher-level" means deciding what it
is we want to make harder or even impossible. 

 
Really?
 
I thought Fortran was higher level than C, and you can do a lot
more things in Fortran than in C.
 
Or rather, Fortran allows you to do things which are possible,
but very cumbersome, in C.  Both are Turing complete, after all.

>
I'd say that C in the form that stabilized around 1975-1976 is
significantly higher level language than contemporary Fortran dialects
or even the next Fortran dialect (F77).

I did write Fortran, not FORTRAN :-)

I agree that C had many very useful things that pre-FORTRAN 90
did not have.  This is not surprising, since the authors of
C knew FORTRAN well.

[...]

Overall, the differences in favor of C looks rather huge.

You are arguing from the point of view of more than 30 years ago.

On the other hand, I recollect only two higher level feature present in
old Fortran that were absent in pre-99 C - VLA and Complex.

You forget arrays as first-class citizens, and a reasonable way
to pass multi-dimensional arrays.  Sure, you could roll them
on your own with pointer arithmetic, but...

The first feature can be emulated in almost satisfactory manner by
dynamic allocation. Also, I am not sure that VLA were already part of
standard Fortran language in 1976.

It didn't.

The second feature is very specialized and rather minor.

Let's take a look at Fortran 95 vs. C99 (similar timeframe), and
thrown in the allocatable TR as well, which everybody implemented.

Fortran 95 already had (just going through
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran_95_language_features
and looking at the features that C does not have)

- A sensible numeric model, where you can ask for a certain
  precision and range
- Usable multi-dimensional arrays
- Modules where you can specify accessibility
- Intent for dummy arguments
- Generics and overloaded operators
- Assumed-shape arrays, where you don't need to pass array
  bounds explicitly
- ALLOCATE and ALLOCATABLE variables, where the compiler
  cleans up after variables go out of scope
- Elemental operations and functions (so you can write
  foo + bar where foo is an array and bar is either an
  array or scalar)
- Array subobjects, you can specify a start, an end and
  a stride in any dimension
- Array intrinsics for shifting, packing, unpacking,
  sum, minmum value, ..., matrix multiplication and
  dot product

The main feature I find lacking is unsigned numbers, but at
least I'm doing something about that, a few decades later :-)