Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC

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Sujet : Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC
De : johnl (at) *nospam* taugh.com (John Levine)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 01. Mar 2025, 21:46:29
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Taughannock Networks
Message-ID : <vpvrn5$2hq0$1@gal.iecc.com>
References : 1 2
User-Agent : trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
According to Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>:
The answer was no, the VAX could not have been done as a RISC
architecture. RISC wasn’t actually price-performance competitive until
the latter 1980s:
>
   RISC didn’t cross over CISC until 1985. This occurred with the
   availability of large SRAMs that could be used for caches.
>
Like other USA-based computer architects, Bell ignores ARM, which
outperformed the VAX without using caches and was much easier to
design.

That's not a fair comparison. VAX design started in 1975 and shipped in 1978.
The first ARM design started in 1983 with working silicon in 1985. It was a
decade later.

On the other hand, I think some things were shortsighted even at the time. As
Bell's paper said, they knew about Moore's law but didn't believe it. If they
believed it they could have made the instructions a little less dense and a lot
easier to decode and pipeline.  STRETCH did pipelining in the 1950s so they
should have been aware of it and considered that future machines could use it.

As someeone else noted, they had microcode on the brain and the VAX instruction
set is clearly designed to be decoded by microcode one byte at a time.  Address
modes can have side-effects so you have to decode them serially or have a big
honking hazard scheme.  They probably also assumed that microcode ROM would
be faster than RAM which even in 1975 was not particularly true.  Rather than
putting every possible instruction into microcode, have a fast subroutine call
and make them subsroutines which can be cached and pipelined.



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Date Sujet#  Auteur
1 Mar 25 * Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC230Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Mar 25 +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC220Anton Ertl
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC25MitchAlsup1
1 Mar 25 ii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
2 Mar 25 ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC23Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Robert Swindells
2 Mar 25 ii i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Robert Swindells
6 Mar 25 ii ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
6 Mar 25 ii ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lynn Wheeler
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
3 Mar 25 ii i  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
3 Mar 25 ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC11Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC9Thomas Koenig
3 Mar 25 ii  i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC8Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii  i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC7Thomas Koenig
6 Mar 25 ii  i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Thomas Koenig
8 Mar 25 ii  i   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Anton Ertl
8 Mar 25 ii  i    +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii  i    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Torbjorn Lindgren
9 Mar 25 ii  i     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii  i      `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
4 Mar 25 ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Anton Ertl
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Keith Thompson
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC160John Levine
1 Mar 25 ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC159Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii i +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii i i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
4 Mar 25 ii i i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lynn Wheeler
2 Mar 25 ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC151John Levine
2 Mar 25 ii  +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC149Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6John Levine
3 Mar 25 ii   i+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii   i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   i +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Michael S
3 Mar 25 ii   i i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Anton Ertl
4 Mar 25 ii   i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii   +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Thomas Koenig
3 Mar 25 ii   i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
3 Mar 25 ii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC139MarkC
3 Mar 25 ii    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC138Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC135Thomas Koenig
4 Mar 25 ii     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC134Lawrence D'Oliveiro
4 Mar 25 ii     i +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
4 Mar 25 ii     i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC132Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii     i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC131Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Mar 25 ii     i   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC130Anton Ertl
6 Mar 25 ii     i    +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3John Levine
7 Mar 25 ii     i    i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lynn Wheeler
8 Mar 25 ii     i    i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
7 Mar 25 ii     i    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC126Waldek Hebisch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC123Lawrence D'Oliveiro
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC66BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     ii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC61MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Robert Finch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC55BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC53Robert Finch
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC52BGB
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC51MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii   +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
10 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC49BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC46MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC40Robert Finch
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC7BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Terje Mathisen
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii  +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1David Schultz
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii    `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC32MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC31Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC15moi
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC12Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC10Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiiii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Stephen Fuld
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3MitchAlsup1
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1moi
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4John Levine
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Anton Ertl
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Robert Finch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC51Waldek Hebisch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Michael S
3 Mar 25 ii     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Robert Swindells
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC28BGB
2 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Mar 25 i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Stefan Monnier
1 Mar 25 +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
5 Mar 25 `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Theo

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