Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c arch 
Sujet : Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC
De : lynn (at) *nospam* garlic.com (Lynn Wheeler)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 02. Mar 2025, 05:29:50
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Wheeler&Wheeler
Message-ID : <871pvgukap.fsf@localhost>
References : 1 2 3 4
User-Agent : Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
IBM tried to commercialize it in the ROMP in the IBM RT PC; Wikipedia
says: "The architectural work on the ROMP began in late spring of
1977, as a spin-off of IBM Research's 801 RISC processor ... The first
examples became available in 1981, and it was first used commercially
in the IBM RT PC announced in January 1986. ... The delay between the
completion of the ROMP design, and introduction of the RT PC was
caused by overly ambitious software plans for the RT PC and its
operating system (OS)."  And IBM then designed a new RISC, the
RS/6000, which was released in 1990.

ROMP originally for DISPLAYWRITER follow-on ... running CP.r operating
system and PL.8 programming language. ROMP was minimal 801, didn't have
supervisor/problem mode ... at the time their claim was PL.8 would only
generate correct code and CP.r would only load/execute correct programs.
They claimed 40bit addressing ... 32 bit addresses ... but top four bits
selected 16 "segment registers" that contained 12bit
segment-identifiers. ... aka 28bit segment displacement and 12bit
segment-ids (40bits) .... and any inline code could change segment
register value ... as easily as could load any general register.

When follow-on to DISPLAYWRITER was canceled, they pivoted to UNIX
workstation market and got the company that had done AT&T unix port to
IBM/PC for PC/IX ... to do AIX. Now ROMP needed supervisor/problem mode
and inline code could no longer change segment register values
... needed to have supervisor call.

Folklore is they also had 200 PL.8 programmers and needed something for
them to do, so they gen'ed a abstract virtual machine system ("VRM")
(implemented in PL.8) and had AIX port be done to the abstract virtual
machine definition (instead of real hardware) .... claiming that the
combined effort would be less (total effort) than having the outside
company do the AIX port to the real hardware (also putting in a lot of
IBM SNA communication support).

The IBM Palo Alto group had been working on UCB BSD port to 370, but was
redirected to do it instead to bare ROMP hardware ... doing it in
enormously significantly less resources than the VRM+AIX+SNA effort.

Move to RS/6000 & RIOS (large multi-chip) doubled the 12bit segment-id
to 24bit segment-id (and some left-over description talked about it
being 52bit addressing) and eliminated the VRM ... and adding in some
amount of BSDisms.

AWD had done their own cards for PC/RT (16bit AT) bus, including a 4mbit
token-ring card. Then for RS/6000 microchannel, AWD was told they
couldn't do their own card, but had to do PS2 microchannel cards. The
communication group was fiercely fighting off client/server and
distributed computing and had seriously performance knee-capped PS2
cards, including ($800) 16mbit token-ring card (the PS2 microchannel
which had lower card throughput than the PC/RT 4mbit TR card).  There
was joke that PC/RT 4mbit TR server having higher throughput than
RS/6000 16mbit TR server.  There was also joke that the RS6000/730 with
VMEbus was a work around corporate politics and being able to install
high-performance workstation cards

We got the HA/6000 project in 1988 (approved by Nick Donofrio),
originally for NYTimes to move their newspaper system off VAXCluster to
RS/6000. I rename it HA/CMP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_High_Availability_Cluster_Multiprocessing
when I start doing technical/scientific cluster scale-up with national
labs (LLNL, LANL, NCAR, etc) and commercial cluster scale-up with RDBMS
vendors (Oracle, Sybase, Ingres, Informix that had vaxcluster support in
same source base with unix). The S/88 product administrator then starts
taking us around to their customers and also has me do a section for the
corporate continuous availability strategy document ... it gets pulled
when both Rochester/AS400 and POK/(high-end mainframe) complain they
couldn't meet the requirements.

Early Jan1992 have a meeting with Oracle CEO and IBM/AWD Hester tells
Ellison we would have 16-system clusters by mid92 and 128-system
clusters by ye92. Then late Jan92, cluster scale-up is transferred for
announce as IBM Supercomputer (for technical/scientific *ONLY*) and we
are told we can't work on anything with more than four processors (we
leave IBM a few months later). Contributing was the mainframe DB2 DBMS
group were complaining if we were allowed to coninue, it would be at
least five years ahead of them.

Neither ROMP or RIOS supported bus/cache consistency for multiprocessor
operation. The executive we reported to, went over to head up ("AIM" -
Apple, IBM, Motorola) Somerset for single chip 801/risc ... but also
adopts Motorola 88k bus enabling multiprocessor configurations. He later
leaves Somerset for president of (SGI owned) MIPS.

trivia: I also had HSDT project (started in early 80s), T1 and faster
computer links, both terrestrial and satellite ... which included custom
designed TDMA satellite system done on the other side of the pacific
... and put in 3-node system. two 4.5M dishes, one in San Jose and one
in Yorktown Research (hdqtrs, east coast) and a 7M dish in Austin (where
much of the RIOS design was going on).  San Jose also got an EVE, a
superfast hardware VLSI logic simulator (scores of times faster than
existing simultion) ... and it was claimed that Austin being able to use
the EVE in San Jose, helped bring RIOS in a year early.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Date Sujet#  Auteur
1 Mar 25 * Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC230Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Mar 25 +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC220Anton Ertl
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC25MitchAlsup1
1 Mar 25 ii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
2 Mar 25 ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC23Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Robert Swindells
2 Mar 25 ii i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Robert Swindells
6 Mar 25 ii ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
6 Mar 25 ii ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lynn Wheeler
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
3 Mar 25 ii i  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
3 Mar 25 ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC11Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC9Thomas Koenig
3 Mar 25 ii  i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC8Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii  i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC7Thomas Koenig
6 Mar 25 ii  i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Thomas Koenig
8 Mar 25 ii  i   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Anton Ertl
8 Mar 25 ii  i    +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii  i    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Torbjorn Lindgren
9 Mar 25 ii  i     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii  i      `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
4 Mar 25 ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Anton Ertl
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Keith Thompson
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC160John Levine
1 Mar 25 ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC159Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Anton Ertl
2 Mar 25 ii i +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii i i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
4 Mar 25 ii i i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 ii +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lynn Wheeler
2 Mar 25 ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC151John Levine
2 Mar 25 ii  +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 ii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC149Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6John Levine
3 Mar 25 ii   i+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii   i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   i +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Michael S
3 Mar 25 ii   i i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Anton Ertl
4 Mar 25 ii   i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Mar 25 ii   +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Thomas Koenig
3 Mar 25 ii   i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii   i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
3 Mar 25 ii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC139MarkC
3 Mar 25 ii    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC138Anton Ertl
3 Mar 25 ii     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC135Thomas Koenig
4 Mar 25 ii     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC134Lawrence D'Oliveiro
4 Mar 25 ii     i +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
4 Mar 25 ii     i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC132Anton Ertl
5 Mar 25 ii     i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC131Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Mar 25 ii     i   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC130Anton Ertl
6 Mar 25 ii     i    +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3John Levine
7 Mar 25 ii     i    i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lynn Wheeler
8 Mar 25 ii     i    i `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Thomas Koenig
7 Mar 25 ii     i    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC126Waldek Hebisch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC123Lawrence D'Oliveiro
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC66BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     ii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC61MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Robert Finch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC55BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC53Robert Finch
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC52BGB
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC51MitchAlsup1
9 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii   +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
10 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC49BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii    `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC46MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC40Robert Finch
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC7BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Terje Mathisen
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii  +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1David Schultz
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii   `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     ii    `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC32MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC31Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii  `- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC15moi
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC12Stephen Fuld
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC10Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC6BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiiii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1Stephen Fuld
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3MitchAlsup1
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iiii `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2BGB
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  iii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Anton Ertl
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  ii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1moi
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4John Levine
12 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     i  `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC3Anton Ertl
11 Mar 25 ii     i     iiii     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     iii+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2MitchAlsup1
8 Mar 25 ii     i     iii`- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1BGB
7 Mar 25 ii     i     ii`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4Robert Finch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC4MitchAlsup1
7 Mar 25 ii     i     i+- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
11 Mar 25 ii     i     i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC51Waldek Hebisch
7 Mar 25 ii     i     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Michael S
3 Mar 25 ii     `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Robert Swindells
1 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC28BGB
2 Mar 25 i+* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
5 Mar 25 i`* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Stefan Monnier
1 Mar 25 +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
2 Mar 25 +* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2 Mar 25 +- Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC1MitchAlsup1
5 Mar 25 `* Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC2Theo

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal