Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?

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Sujet : Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?
De : anton (at) *nospam* mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 12. May 2025, 09:41:57
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID : <2025May12.104157@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
User-Agent : xrn 10.11
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> writes:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
One of my pet peeves is disk drives with memory caches in them. Why?
=20
>
For reads it allows the disk to always read full sets of sectors, the=20
following blocks are likely to be needed soon anyway.

Yes.

For writes, as long as the drive has enough energy (maybe in the form of =
>
spinning inertia, or a hefty cap?) the always be able to save the buffer =
>
cache to spinning rust, it can allow operations to complete immediately, =
>
or as soon as the data has been transferred into the disk cache.

I used to think so, but someone (who appeared knowledgable) corrected
that view and told me that all that HDDs ever do on power loss is to
complete the current sector.

Since all disks are using linear sector (or 4K block?) addressing these=20
days, instead of head/cylinder/sector, a little bit of cache can help=20
hide the tiny time glitches when the disk has to reposition.

An alternative is to skew the start of the first sector on the next
track to take the repositioning time into account, and from what I
have read, that is what is done.  It allows to complete a sequence of
sectors in one go, and then move on to the next sequence of sectors
elsewhere, without having to wait for another disk rotation to be able
to write the sector that was missed in an unskewed drive.

On SSDs DRAM cache is also used for storing the logical-to-physical
sector mapping of the flash translation layer; accessing it on flash
is apparently too slow.  Some DRAM-less SSDs keep that cache in host
DRAM (but AFAIK in an area that is then not accessed by the host).

In all of these caches the disk drive cache is not addressable by the
CPU and it's coherence with the CPU cache is therefore not an issue.
It's coherence with the permanent state of the drive is an issue,
though.  SCSI and SATA drives (and, I guess, NVME drives, too, but I
have read little about that) support command-queuing interfaces that
allow the file systems to manage this coherence.  File systems are not
as good at that as I would like.

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Date Sujet#  Auteur
10 May 25 * Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?91Thomas Koenig
11 May 25 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?60MitchAlsup1
11 May 25 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?59Al Kossow
12 May 25 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?58Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?57MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?56Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i    i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?53Terje Mathisen
12 May 25 i     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Anton Ertl
12 May 25 i     i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i     i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
12 May 25 i     `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?49Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?43Anton Ertl
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?42Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?41Stephen Fuld
14 May 25 i      i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?36Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?33Stephen Fuld
18 May02:35 i      i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?32Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May01:10 i      i  ii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6Lynn Wheeler
19 May21:46 i      i  ii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Vir Campestris
19 May22:58 i      i  ii i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
20 May11:22 i      i  ii i  +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Vir Campestris
21 May03:38 i      i  ii i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May04:49 i      i  ii i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
19 May01:18 i      i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?25MitchAlsup1
20 May00:33 i      i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?24MitchAlsup1
20 May01:36 i      i  ii   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May06:16 i      i  ii    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?22BGB
20 May15:49 i      i  ii     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20Stefan Monnier
20 May18:42 i      i  ii     i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
20 May19:35 i      i  ii     ii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May01:29 i      i  ii     i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?17Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:08 i      i  ii     i +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?12BGB
21 May04:46 i      i  ii     i i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?11Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May04:58 i      i  ii     i i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?10Stephen Fuld
21 May18:19 i      i  ii     i i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?9Anton Ertl
22 May03:19 i      i  ii     i i   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7George Neuner
22 May07:51 i      i  ii     i i   i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6BGB
22 May13:12 i      i  ii     i i   i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Torbjorn Lindgren
22 May18:39 i      i  ii     i i   i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4BGB
22 May23:41 i      i  ii     i i   i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May00:36 i      i  ii     i i   i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May15:21 i      i  ii     i i   i     `- Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1John Levine
22 May12:32 i      i  ii     i i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Dan Cross
21 May04:54 i      i  ii     i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
21 May06:39 i      i  ii     i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May07:42 i      i  ii     i   +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May08:08 i      i  ii     i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1BGB
21 May01:57 i      i  ii     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2John Levine
14 May 25 i      i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Thomas Koenig
23 May01:18 i      i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Waldek Hebisch
23 May06:35 i      i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May07:09 i      i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May13:36 i      i     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
18 May00:57 i      `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May22:33 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?29quadibloc
20 May01:43 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?28Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May19:19 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?27BGB
20 May21:06 i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Stefan Monnier
20 May23:11 i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20MitchAlsup1
21 May01:34 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:00 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:30 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?8George Neuner
21 May02:39 i  iii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Chris M. Thomasson
21 May04:41 i  iii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May17:09 i  iii i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May20:30 i  iii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Stefan Monnier
22 May03:45 i  iii i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May18:06 i  iii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May22:32 i  iii  `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1jseigh
21 May08:05 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Anton Ertl
22 May03:48 i  iii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May13:23 i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Stefan Monnier
21 May15:08 i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6MitchAlsup1
22 May03:49 i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
22 May18:34 i  ii   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3MitchAlsup1
22 May23:42 i  ii   i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May02:54 i  ii   i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
23 May04:47 i  ii   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May01:32 i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:29 i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:04 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Chris M. Thomasson
23 May00:49 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Chris M. Thomasson
23 May02:04 i    `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:31 `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson

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