Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?

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Sujet : Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?
De : anton (at) *nospam* mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 21. May 2025, 18:19:47
Autres entêtes
Organisation : Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID : <2025May21.191947@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
User-Agent : xrn 10.11
EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes:
I suspect some of Lawrence's concerns go back to the Win3.1 days,
when HDD could now afford to expand the read/write buffer and improve
their performance stats. Because the Parallel ATA interface was synchronous
one way drives "improved" their performance stats was to lie and send back
a fake ACK to writes until they had enough sectors to make up a whole track.

AFAIK there was no tagged command queuing in the (P)ATA interface
until pretty late in the game (and then it was not used by Linux
AFAIK).  So if the HDD had waited until the sector was on the platter
(and IIRC there was a way to switch the drive to such a synchronous
mode), anything that writes to the HDD would have been extremely slow:

Wait until the sector is found, write the sector, report success, get
the next command that writes the next sector, but now the head is
already past the sector and you have to wait for another rotation.

By contrast, if you return success as soon as the sector is in the
HDD's RAM, the OS can continue sending data, and the HDD can write the
data in any order that it deems appropriate; it does not have to wait
for a complete track or something, it can start writing right away,
and, of course, if there is a sequence of sectors in the cache, write
that sequence in one go.

I have written a test that checks how much HDDs can reorder writes,
and my results are that, for the pattern I tested, there is no bound on
the out-of-orderness that the drives exhibit if you don't ask for a
barrier or sync.  You can find the test software and the results of my
testing at

<http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/hdtest/>

Yes it risked scrambling the file system if one powered off too quick.
But I gather DOS/Win3.1 FAT file system would do that enough on its own
that the drive wouldn't be blamed.

Actually on MS-DOS the usual way to shut down the system was to turn
the computer off, or in case of floppy disks to just take them out of
the drive after the light has gone out, and the amount of breakage on
the file system level was not big.  I expect that the file system
synced pretty obsessively to achieve that.

When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit
instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was
enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive.

SCSI or PATA?

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Date Sujet#  Auteur
10 May 25 * Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?91Thomas Koenig
11 May 25 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?60MitchAlsup1
11 May 25 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?59Al Kossow
12 May 25 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?58Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?57MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?56Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i    i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?53Terje Mathisen
12 May 25 i     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Anton Ertl
12 May 25 i     i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i     i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
12 May 25 i     `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?49Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?43Anton Ertl
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?42Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?41Stephen Fuld
14 May 25 i      i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?36Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?33Stephen Fuld
18 May02:35 i      i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?32Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May01:10 i      i  ii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6Lynn Wheeler
19 May21:46 i      i  ii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Vir Campestris
19 May22:58 i      i  ii i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
20 May11:22 i      i  ii i  +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Vir Campestris
21 May03:38 i      i  ii i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May04:49 i      i  ii i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
19 May01:18 i      i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?25MitchAlsup1
20 May00:33 i      i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?24MitchAlsup1
20 May01:36 i      i  ii   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May06:16 i      i  ii    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?22BGB
20 May15:49 i      i  ii     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20Stefan Monnier
20 May18:42 i      i  ii     i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
20 May19:35 i      i  ii     ii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May01:29 i      i  ii     i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?17Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:08 i      i  ii     i +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?12BGB
21 May04:46 i      i  ii     i i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?11Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May04:58 i      i  ii     i i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?10Stephen Fuld
21 May18:19 i      i  ii     i i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?9Anton Ertl
22 May03:19 i      i  ii     i i   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7George Neuner
22 May07:51 i      i  ii     i i   i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6BGB
22 May13:12 i      i  ii     i i   i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Torbjorn Lindgren
22 May18:39 i      i  ii     i i   i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4BGB
22 May23:41 i      i  ii     i i   i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May00:36 i      i  ii     i i   i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May15:21 i      i  ii     i i   i     `- Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1John Levine
22 May12:32 i      i  ii     i i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Dan Cross
21 May04:54 i      i  ii     i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
21 May06:39 i      i  ii     i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May07:42 i      i  ii     i   +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May08:08 i      i  ii     i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1BGB
21 May01:57 i      i  ii     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2John Levine
14 May 25 i      i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Thomas Koenig
23 May01:18 i      i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Waldek Hebisch
23 May06:35 i      i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May07:09 i      i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May13:36 i      i     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
18 May00:57 i      `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May22:33 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?29quadibloc
20 May01:43 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?28Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May19:19 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?27BGB
20 May21:06 i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Stefan Monnier
20 May23:11 i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20MitchAlsup1
21 May01:34 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:00 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:30 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?8George Neuner
21 May02:39 i  iii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Chris M. Thomasson
21 May04:41 i  iii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May17:09 i  iii i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May20:30 i  iii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Stefan Monnier
22 May03:45 i  iii i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May18:06 i  iii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May22:32 i  iii  `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1jseigh
21 May08:05 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Anton Ertl
22 May03:48 i  iii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May13:23 i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Stefan Monnier
21 May15:08 i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6MitchAlsup1
22 May03:49 i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
22 May18:34 i  ii   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3MitchAlsup1
22 May23:42 i  ii   i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May02:54 i  ii   i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
23 May04:47 i  ii   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May01:32 i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:29 i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:04 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Chris M. Thomasson
23 May00:49 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Chris M. Thomasson
23 May02:04 i    `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:31 `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson

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