Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c arch 
Sujet : Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?
De : antispam (at) *nospam* fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 23. May 2025, 01:18:53
Autres entêtes
Organisation : To protect and to server
Message-ID : <100oetb$c5c7$1@paganini.bofh.team>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
User-Agent : tin/2.6.2-20221225 ("Pittyvaich") (Linux/6.1.0-9-amd64 (x86_64))
Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
On 5/13/2025 1:12 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:40:35 GMT, Anton Ertl wrote:
 
In this case the drive knows things that the OS does not: Consider that
the OS asked for sector N what happens when the arm finally has settled
enough to read from the track, and the first sector it sees is sector
N+10.
 
The OS isn’t likely to ask for one sector at a time.
 
Frequently true, so consider this related scenario.  The host requests a
read of 10 sectors starting at sector N.  When the head settles, the
next sector is N+6.  Without any in drive buffering, it would wait
almost a full revolution till record N comes under the head.
 
With buffering, but no cache, the drive reads record N+5 to N+9 into the
buffer, then waits until the drive rotates to record N and begins the
host transfer.  This is an improvement because the transfer to the host
is faster than the transfer from the disk, and the last 3 sectors can be
transferred out of the buffer without waiting for the disk, so the
transfer is completed faster.
 
Now consider with caching.  Similar, but after record N+9, the drive
continues reading into the cache.  Lets say there are 30 records on this
track.  If it reads all of the data into the cache, then proceeds as
above once the disk rotates to record N, it has cost zero time, and if
the host then issues another 10 sector read sequential to the initial
one (or actually any sectors from N+10 to N+29).  This can be satisfied
out of the cache without any drive delay, so much faster than without
the cache, and the heads can be moved away to start satisfying another
unrelated request.  There is minimal cost and substantial benefit.
 
Now you have argued that the file system cache should take care of that,
presumably issuing prefetch reads for the next sectors.  This will work,
of course, but has some disadvantages relative to using the drive cache.
 Specifically,since it is unlikely the prefetch request will be
received by the drive before record N+10 has passed the heads, it will
incur additional most of a rotational delay, which will tie up the
drive, preventing it from responding to some other request.
 
No one is arguing that host based file caches are bad.  It is simply the
fact that there are situations where drive caches are a useful addition,
and since the drive has to have some DRAM anyway for other reasons, the
cost is minimal. You can think of the drive cache as the "next level"
cache behind the host based cache.

It is pretty clear that due to drive mechanics track cache/buffer
is useful.  However, the real question is about size: how big
should it be.  For "consumer" drives I see claims of 256 MB
cache.  Given rather optimistic 200 MB/s transfer rate it is
about 1.25s of drive data, that is 80-150 rotations.  I would
expect that say 4 tracks should be enough for reading.  For
writing one could use few more tracks.  Still, advertised cache
sizes seem to be much bigger than necessary.

--
                              Waldek Hebisch

Date Sujet#  Auteur
10 May 25 * Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?91Thomas Koenig
11 May 25 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?60MitchAlsup1
11 May 25 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?59Al Kossow
12 May 25 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?58Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?57MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?56Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2MitchAlsup1
12 May 25 i    i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
12 May 25 i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?53Terje Mathisen
12 May 25 i     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Anton Ertl
12 May 25 i     i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i     i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
12 May 25 i     `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?49Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stefan Monnier
13 May 25 i      i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
13 May 25 i      +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?43Anton Ertl
13 May 25 i      i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?42Lawrence D'Oliveiro
13 May 25 i      i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?41Stephen Fuld
14 May 25 i      i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?36Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?33Stephen Fuld
18 May02:35 i      i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?32Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May01:10 i      i  ii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6Lynn Wheeler
19 May21:46 i      i  ii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Vir Campestris
19 May22:58 i      i  ii i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
20 May11:22 i      i  ii i  +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Vir Campestris
21 May03:38 i      i  ii i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May04:49 i      i  ii i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
19 May01:18 i      i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?25MitchAlsup1
20 May00:33 i      i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?24MitchAlsup1
20 May01:36 i      i  ii   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May06:16 i      i  ii    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?22BGB
20 May15:49 i      i  ii     +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20Stefan Monnier
20 May18:42 i      i  ii     i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
20 May19:35 i      i  ii     ii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May01:29 i      i  ii     i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?17Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:08 i      i  ii     i +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?12BGB
21 May04:46 i      i  ii     i i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?11Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May04:58 i      i  ii     i i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?10Stephen Fuld
21 May18:19 i      i  ii     i i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?9Anton Ertl
22 May03:19 i      i  ii     i i   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7George Neuner
22 May07:51 i      i  ii     i i   i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6BGB
22 May13:12 i      i  ii     i i   i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Torbjorn Lindgren
22 May18:39 i      i  ii     i i   i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4BGB
22 May23:41 i      i  ii     i i   i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May00:36 i      i  ii     i i   i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May15:21 i      i  ii     i i   i     `- Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1John Levine
22 May12:32 i      i  ii     i i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Dan Cross
21 May04:54 i      i  ii     i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Stephen Fuld
21 May06:39 i      i  ii     i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May07:42 i      i  ii     i   +- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Stephen Fuld
21 May08:08 i      i  ii     i   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1BGB
21 May01:57 i      i  ii     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 May 25 i      i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2John Levine
14 May 25 i      i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Thomas Koenig
23 May01:18 i      i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Waldek Hebisch
23 May06:35 i      i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May07:09 i      i    `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2BGB
23 May13:36 i      i     `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
18 May00:57 i      `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
19 May22:33 +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?29quadibloc
20 May01:43 i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?28Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 May19:19 i `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?27BGB
20 May21:06 i  +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?23Stefan Monnier
20 May23:11 i  i+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?20MitchAlsup1
21 May01:34 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:00 i  ii+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:30 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?8George Neuner
21 May02:39 i  iii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Chris M. Thomasson
21 May04:41 i  iii +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May17:09 i  iii i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May20:30 i  iii i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Stefan Monnier
22 May03:45 i  iii i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May18:06 i  iii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lynn Wheeler
21 May22:32 i  iii  `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1jseigh
21 May08:05 i  ii+* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Anton Ertl
22 May03:48 i  iii`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May13:23 i  ii`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?7Stefan Monnier
21 May15:08 i  ii `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?6MitchAlsup1
22 May03:49 i  ii  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
22 May18:34 i  ii   +* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3MitchAlsup1
22 May23:42 i  ii   i+- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 May02:54 i  ii   i`- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1MitchAlsup1
23 May04:47 i  ii   `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1George Neuner
21 May01:32 i  i`* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
21 May02:29 i  i `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:04 i  `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?3Chris M. Thomasson
23 May00:49 i   `* Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?2Chris M. Thomasson
23 May02:04 i    `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson
21 May02:31 `- Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?1Chris M. Thomasson

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal