Re: Why I've Dropped In

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Sujet : Re: Why I've Dropped In
De : quadibloc (at) *nospam* gmail.com (quadibloc)
Groupes : comp.arch
Date : 16. Jun 2025, 04:46:51
Autres entêtes
Organisation : novaBBS
Message-ID : <6cb409f07cf0f109d91ea8bb072efd36@www.novabbs.com>
References : 1 2 3
User-Agent : Rocksolid Light
Given that Concertina II poses obvious difficulties, it seems reasonable
to try to explain why it is the way it is.
The fundamental characteristic of Concertina II that is the most
controversial is how programs are organized around 256-bit blocks of
program code. So I think that this is what I need to explain and attempt
to justify.
Perhaps the most obvious apparent reason for block structure is to allow
VLIW functionality. Although VLIW doesn't seem to have been a success in
the market, the rationale behind it is the same as that of the promising
Mill design: control pipelining without having to cope with the
complexity of out-of-order execution. The Concertina II block structure
lets VLIW functionality be optional, so that one ISA can serve
processors of different sizes, designed forf different speeds; for some,
the cost of OoO makes sense, and VLIW doesn't, but this allows the
others to be addressed as well.
Switching between modes to allow the same bit patterns to be interpreted
as instructions belonging to different sets of instructions is
considered to be a security hazard. The block structure allows the
instruction set to be extended without that danger - one part of a block
may affect how the rest of the block is interpreted, but that's still a
static attribute of the code that can't be changed by branching to it
from elsewhere with special bits set.
It's been noted that having immediate values in instructions is a very
useful way of making values available to programs as a natural result of
program fetch, without having to do other memory accesses, which tend to
be slow. It was Mitch Alsup himself who noted the importance of this
feature. But because variables come in many types and sizes, I found it
hard to fit immediates of all available data types into an ISA where
variable-length instructions are indicated in a very simple manner. My
scheme of reserving part of a block as unused, and pointing to values in
that unused part of the block makes access more direct than the heads
and tails system, and avoids changing the length of the instruction
entirely.
So these are the reasons I've stuck with block structure. There might be
schemes to avoid block structure and yet meet any one of these goals,
but trying to meet all four and not have block structure seems to me to
be likely to cause a much more complicated instruction set even than
what I have.
Also, there are workarounds. If one wishes to generate code that ran on
a Concertina II implementation, but couldn't cope with managing a
division into blocks... then just use the plain 32-bit instruction set
without using immediates. One will have a complete instruction set that
already does more than any typical RISC instruction set; a lot is packed
into those 32-bit instructions.
And at the next level, one could always use the same header type for
every block. Then dealing with the block structure is only a simple
matter of arithmetic, and now one can, for example, have a
variable-length instruction set.
Yes, choosing the best header for any given block if you allow the
compiler to generate all the available instructions is complicated. But
while that gets the best possible performance, people aren't forced to
do that in order to make use of the architecture. Simpler workarounds
are available.
John Savard

Date Sujet#  Auteur
19 May 25 * Why I've Dropped In417quadibloc
19 May 25 +* Re: Why I've Dropped In349quadibloc
21 May 25 i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In348quadibloc
22 May 25 i +* Re: Why I've Dropped In11David Chmelik
22 May 25 i i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In2MitchAlsup1
23 May 25 i ii`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1MitchAlsup1
10 Jun 25 i i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In8quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i i +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1BGB
11 Jun 25 i i `* Re: Why I've Dropped In6quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i i  +* Re: Why I've Dropped In4Chris M. Thomasson
12 Jun 25 i i  i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In3quadibloc
12 Jun 25 i i  i +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Chris M. Thomasson
16 Jun 25 i i  i `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Chris M. Thomasson
12 Jun 25 i i  `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
10 Jun 25 i +* Re: Why I've Dropped In335quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In322Thomas Koenig
11 Jun 25 i ii+* Re: Why I've Dropped In23BGB
11 Jun 25 i iii+* Re: Why I've Dropped In8MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 25 i iiii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In7BGB
12 Jun 25 i iiii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In6MitchAlsup1
12 Jun 25 i iiii  `* Re: Why I've Dropped In5BGB
13 Jun 25 i iiii   `* Re: Why I've Dropped In4MitchAlsup1
15 Jun 25 i iiii    `* Re: Why I've Dropped In3BGB
15 Jun 25 i iiii     `* Re: Why I've Dropped In2MitchAlsup1
15 Jun 25 i iiii      `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1BGB
11 Jun 25 i iii+* Re: Why I've Dropped In10Anton Ertl
11 Jun 25 i iiii+* Re: Why I've Dropped In6MitchAlsup1
12 Jun 25 i iiiii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In5MitchAlsup1
12 Jun 25 i iiiii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In4Anton Ertl
12 Jun 25 i iiiii  +* Re: Why I've Dropped In2MitchAlsup1
20 Jun 25 i iiiii  i`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Anton Ertl
12 Jun 25 i iiiii  `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Thomas Koenig
11 Jun 25 i iiii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In3BGB
12 Jun 25 i iiii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In2Anton Ertl
12 Jun 25 i iiii  `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1BGB
20 Jun 25 i iii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In4quadibloc
20 Jun 25 i iii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In3MitchAlsup1
20 Jun 25 i iii  `* Re: Why I've Dropped In2moi
20 Jun 25 i iii   `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i ii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In298quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i ii +* Re: Why I've Dropped In19MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 25 i ii i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In3quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i ii ii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In2MitchAlsup1
14 Jun 25 i ii ii `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1BGB
16 Jun 25 i ii i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In15Stefan Monnier
17 Jun 25 i ii i +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
17 Jun 25 i ii i `* Re: Why I've Dropped In13Stephen Fuld
17 Jun 25 i ii i  `* Re: Why I've Dropped In12MitchAlsup1
17 Jun 25 i ii i   +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
17 Jun 25 i ii i   `* Re: Why I've Dropped In10Stefan Monnier
17 Jun 25 i ii i    +* Re: Why I've Dropped In6MitchAlsup1
17 Jun 25 i ii i    i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In5Stefan Monnier
18 Jun 25 i ii i    i `* Re: Why I've Dropped In4Anton Ertl
18 Jun 25 i ii i    i  +* Re: Why I've Dropped In2Stefan Monnier
19 Jun 25 i ii i    i  i`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Anton Ertl
18 Jun 25 i ii i    i  `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1BGB
18 Jun 25 i ii i    `* Re: Why I've Dropped In3Chris M. Thomasson
18 Jun 25 i ii i     `* Re: Why I've Dropped In2Stefan Monnier
20 Jun 25 i ii i      `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Chris M. Thomasson
11 Jun 25 i ii +* Re: Why I've Dropped In198Thomas Koenig
12 Jun 25 i ii i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In197quadibloc
12 Jun 25 i ii i +* Re: Why I've Dropped In193Stephen Fuld
13 Jun 25 i ii i i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In54quadibloc
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii`* Re: Why I've Dropped In53Stephen Fuld
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In52Thomas Koenig
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii  +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii  `* Re: Why I've Dropped In50Stephen Fuld
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii   `* Re: Why I've Dropped In49Thomas Koenig
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    +* Re: Why I've Dropped In21Stephen Fuld
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In19Thomas Koenig
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii+* Re: Why I've Dropped In2MitchAlsup1
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    iii`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii+- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii`* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In15John Levine
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii +* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In13Stephen Fuld
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i`* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In12John Levine
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i +* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In9MitchAlsup1
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i i+* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In7Stephen Fuld
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i ii+* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In2quadibloc
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i iii`- Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i ii`* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In4MitchAlsup1
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i ii `* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In3Stephen Fuld
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i ii  `* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In2quadibloc
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i ii   `- Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i i`- Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i `* Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In2Stephen Fuld
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii i  `- Re: base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In1John Levine
16 Jun 25 i ii i ii    ii `- Re: big pages, base and bounds, Why I've Dropped In1John Levine
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    i`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Lars Poulsen
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1MitchAlsup1
13 Jun 25 i ii i ii    `* Re: Why I've Dropped In26quadibloc
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii     `* Re: Why I've Dropped In25Thomas Koenig
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii      `* Re: Why I've Dropped In24Stephen Fuld
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       +* Re: Why I've Dropped In3Thomas Koenig
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In2Stephen Fuld
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Thomas Koenig
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       +* Re: Why I've Dropped In14Stephen Fuld
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i`* Re: Why I've Dropped In13quadibloc
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i +- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Stephen Fuld
14 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i `* Re: Why I've Dropped In11quadibloc
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii       i  `* Re: Why I've Dropped In10Stephen Fuld
15 Jun 25 i ii i ii       `* Re: Why I've Dropped In6quadibloc
13 Jun 25 i ii i i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In134quadibloc
14 Jun 25 i ii i i+* Re: base registers and addres size, Why I've Dropped In3John Levine
18 Jun 25 i ii i i`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1Lynn Wheeler
13 Jun 25 i ii i `* Re: Why I've Dropped In3BGB
11 Jun 25 i ii +* Re: Why I've Dropped In55Anton Ertl
11 Jun 25 i ii +* Re: Why I've Dropped In4quadibloc
11 Jun 25 i ii `* Re: Why I've Dropped In21MitchAlsup1
11 Jun 25 i i+* Re: Why I've Dropped In11quadibloc
13 Jun 25 i i`- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
16 Jun 25 i `- Re: Why I've Dropped In1quadibloc
12 Jun 25 +* Re: Why I've Dropped In58quadibloc
27 Jun 25 `* Re: errno, Code density9John Levine

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