Re: Joy of this, Joy of that

On 07/12/2024 21:57, D wrote:

  On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
 

On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:

The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.

>
That is your credo - your religion.
I do not ascribe to it.

 And I respect that. I disagree, it is not a religion, it is a description of the real world we actually live in, that is reality.
 I know you do not ascribe to it. You have not managed to persuade me of your point, and likewise, I have not persuaded you of my point.
 I agree to disgree. Do you? ;)
 

Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a bit impertinent.
>
I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more flexible and useful..

 Regardless, it is still part of an expanding material world. When I say material, you need to stop thinking "material" and start thinking about reality as a totality, that we get to know better and better.
 Quantum mechanics can progress, we are all energy, or strings, I really do not care, because that is just part of our material world, that we explore through the method and process of science.
 It doesn't matter how hard one twists or turns, or looks to quantum theorists, what ever they find out, will just enlarge our understanding of the material world, or the universe, or the totality or what ever you want to call it.
 

I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to be true.

 That is a self refuting position. Because that statement in itself, would be a truth you do subscribe to.
 

That is the trouble with your brain.
It thinks in Boolean logic. In literal terms,

It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and not die prematurely.

 True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In fact, the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.
 

I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like what you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the imagination

That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying externality

... quantum, arguments we've been through before...

I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking.

 

No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material world'. The certainty of 'social justice'

I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words in my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end up killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not like for that to happen.

:-)
--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll look exactly the same afterwards."
Billy Connolly