Sujet : Re: Joy of this, Joy of that
De : nospam (at) *nospam* example.net (D)
Groupes : comp.os.linux.miscDate : 14. Dec 2024, 19:40:45
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <9bfe71f2-15ce-bf03-beae-d4da72b25301@example.net>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.
Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
>
Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.
>
Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
>
The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
>
As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....
What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality itself. According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a reality that could be structured differently. This leads to an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a reality devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status of knowledge and reality.
In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he would have seen that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403
Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism as an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system. In Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer and Rae Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can be seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101 They are tagged as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable "things in themselves" behind our perceptions. The necessary preconditions of experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and time, are what make a priori judgments possible, but all of this process of comprehending what lies fundamental to human experience fails to bring anyone beyond the inherent limits of human sensibility. Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects of which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in his book.
The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
>
The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to Materialism and Laws of Nature.
A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? It is very interesting!
"Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.
>
>
Date | Sujet | # | | Auteur |
19 Nov 24 | Joy of this, Joy of that | 806 | | root |
20 Nov 24 |  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 4 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
20 Nov 24 |   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 3 | | root |
20 Nov 24 |    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
20 Nov 24 |    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
20 Nov 24 |  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 801 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
20 Nov 24 |   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 193 | | Rich |
20 Nov 24 |    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | The Natural Philosopher |
21 Nov 24 |    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 191 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
21 Nov 24 |     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
14 Jan 25 |      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Bozo User |
21 Nov 24 |     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 187 | | The Natural Philosopher |
22 Nov 24 |      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 186 | | Don_from_AZ |
22 Nov 24 |       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 185 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
23 Nov 24 |        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 184 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
23 Nov 24 |         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 5 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
24 Nov 24 |          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 4 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
24 Nov 24 |           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
24 Nov 24 |            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
24 Nov 24 |           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
23 Nov 24 |         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 178 | | The Natural Philosopher |
23 Nov 24 |          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
23 Nov 24 |          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
24 Nov 24 |          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 174 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
24 Nov 24 |           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
24 Nov 24 |           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 172 | | Rich |
24 Nov 24 |            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 168 | | The Natural Philosopher |
24 Nov 24 |             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 159 | | Rich |
24 Nov 24 |              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 158 | | D |
25 Nov 24 |               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 157 | | rbowman |
25 Nov 24 |                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 156 | | D |
25 Nov 24 |                 Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 155 | | The Natural Philosopher |
25 Nov 24 |                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 15 | | D |
26 Nov 24 |                   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 14 | | rbowman |
26 Nov 24 |                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
26 Nov 24 |                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 12 | | Pancho |
26 Nov 24 |                     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 11 | | Rich |
26 Nov 24 |                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Chris Ahlstrom |
27 Nov 24 |                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Pancho |
26 Nov 24 |                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 8 | | rbowman |
26 Nov 24 |                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 4 | | D |
27 Nov 24 |                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Rich |
27 Nov 24 |                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | rbowman |
27 Nov 24 |                         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
27 Nov 24 |                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 3 | | The Natural Philosopher |
27 Nov 24 |                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | rbowman |
28 Nov 24 |                         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | The Natural Philosopher |
25 Nov 24 |                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 139 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
27 Nov 24 |                   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 138 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
27 Nov 24 |                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 137 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
28 Nov 24 |                     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 136 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
28 Nov 24 |                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 133 | | rbowman |
28 Nov 24 |                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 132 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
28 Nov 24 |                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 3 | | rbowman |
29 Nov 24 |                         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
29 Nov 24 |                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
28 Nov 24 |                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 128 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
29 Nov 24 |                         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 127 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
29 Nov 24 |                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 116 | | rbowman |
30 Nov 24 |                           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 115 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
30 Nov 24 |                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
30 Nov 24 |                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 113 | | rbowman |
30 Nov 24 |                             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | The Natural Philosopher |
1 Dec 24 |                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
1 Dec 24 |                             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 110 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
1 Dec 24 |                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 5 | | The Natural Philosopher |
1 Dec 24 |                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Rich |
3 Dec 24 |                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
1 Dec 24 |                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
2 Dec 24 |                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
1 Dec 24 |                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
3 Dec 24 |                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
1 Dec 24 |                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 102 | | rbowman |
3 Dec 24 |                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 101 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
3 Dec 24 |                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | The Natural Philosopher |
3 Dec 24 |                                 Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
3 Dec 24 |                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 98 | | rbowman |
5 Dec 24 |                                 Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 97 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
5 Dec 24 |                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 92 | | D |
6 Dec 24 |                                   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 91 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
6 Dec 24 |                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 37 | | rbowman |
6 Dec 24 |                                     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 34 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
7 Dec 24 |                                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 17 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
7 Dec 24 |                                       Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 16 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 14 | | Rich |
7 Dec 24 |                                         Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 13 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 12 | | Rich |
7 Dec 24 |                                           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 10 | | D |
8 Dec 24 |                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 7 | | Rich |
8 Dec 24 |                                             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 5 | | rbowman |
8 Dec 24 |                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 4 | | Rich |
8 Dec 24 |                                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | The Natural Philosopher |
9 Dec 24 |                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | The Natural Philosopher |
8 Dec 24 |                                               Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |
8 Dec 24 |                                             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
8 Dec 24 |                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Robert Riches |
8 Dec 24 |                                             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                           Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | D |
8 Dec 24 |                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
7 Dec 24 |                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 14 | | D |
7 Dec 24 |                                     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | 186282@ud0s4.net |
6 Dec 24 |                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 53 | | D |
5 Dec 24 |                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 4 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
29 Nov 24 |                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 10 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
28 Nov 24 |                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 2 | | Lawrence D'Oliveiro |
25 Nov 24 |             Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 8 | | vallor |
24 Nov 24 |            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 3 | | D |
24 Nov 24 |          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Rich |
21 Nov 24 |     Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | Rich |
20 Nov 24 |   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 606 | | John Ames |
20 Nov 24 |   Re: Joy of this, Joy of that | 1 | | rbowman |