Re: Joy of this, Joy of that

Liste des GroupesRevenir à col misc 
Sujet : Re: Joy of this, Joy of that
De : nospam (at) *nospam* example.net (D)
Groupes : comp.os.linux.misc
Date : 14. Dec 2024, 19:40:45
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <9bfe71f2-15ce-bf03-beae-d4da72b25301@example.net>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
  On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
 
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
 
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
 I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.
 
 Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
>
Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.
>
Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
>
The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
>
As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....
What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality itself. According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a reality that could be structured differently. This leads to an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a reality devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status of knowledge and reality.
In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he would have seen that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403 
Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism as an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system. In Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer and Rae Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can be seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101  They are tagged as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable "things in themselves" behind our perceptions. The necessary preconditions of experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and time, are what make a priori judgments possible, but all of this process of comprehending what lies fundamental to human experience fails to bring anyone beyond the inherent limits of human sensibility. Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects of which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in his book.

The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
>
The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to Materialism and Laws of Nature.
A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? It is very interesting!

"Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.
>
>

Date Sujet#  Auteur
19 Nov 24 * Joy of this, Joy of that806root
20 Nov 24 +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 Nov 24 i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that3root
20 Nov 24 i +- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
20 Nov 24 i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
20 Nov 24 `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that801186282@ud0s4.net
20 Nov 24  +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that193Rich
20 Nov 24  i+- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1The Natural Philosopher
21 Nov 24  i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that191186282@ud0s4.net
21 Nov 24  i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
14 Jan 25  i i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Bozo User
21 Nov 24  i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that187The Natural Philosopher
22 Nov 24  i i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that186Don_from_AZ
22 Nov 24  i i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that185Lawrence D'Oliveiro
23 Nov 24  i i  `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that184186282@ud0s4.net
23 Nov 24  i i   +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that5Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Nov 24  i i   i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that4186282@ud0s4.net
24 Nov 24  i i   i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Nov 24  i i   i i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1186282@ud0s4.net
24 Nov 24  i i   i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
23 Nov 24  i i   `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that178The Natural Philosopher
23 Nov 24  i i    +- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
23 Nov 24  i i    +- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
24 Nov 24  i i    +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that174186282@ud0s4.net
24 Nov 24  i i    i+- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
24 Nov 24  i i    i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that172Rich
24 Nov 24  i i    i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that168The Natural Philosopher
24 Nov 24  i i    i i+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that159Rich
24 Nov 24  i i    i ii`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that158D
25 Nov 24  i i    i ii `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that157rbowman
25 Nov 24  i i    i ii  `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that156D
25 Nov 24  i i    i ii   `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that155The Natural Philosopher
25 Nov 24  i i    i ii    +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that15D
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that14rbowman
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i +- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that12Pancho
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i  `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that11Rich
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i   +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Chris Ahlstrom
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i   i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Pancho
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i   `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that8rbowman
26 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i    +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that4D
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i    i+- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Rich
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i    i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2rbowman
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i    i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i    `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that3The Natural Philosopher
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i     `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2rbowman
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii    i      `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1The Natural Philosopher
25 Nov 24  i i    i ii    `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that139Lawrence D'Oliveiro
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii     `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that138186282@ud0s4.net
27 Nov 24  i i    i ii      `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that137Lawrence D'Oliveiro
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii       `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that136186282@ud0s4.net
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii        +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that133rbowman
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that132186282@ud0s4.net
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that3rbowman
29 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2186282@ud0s4.net
29 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that128Lawrence D'Oliveiro
29 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i  `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that127186282@ud0s4.net
29 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that116rbowman
30 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that115186282@ud0s4.net
30 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   i +- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
30 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that113rbowman
30 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   i  +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2The Natural Philosopher
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i  i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Lawrence D'Oliveiro
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i  `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that110186282@ud0s4.net
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that5The Natural Philosopher
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   i+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Rich
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   ii`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1186282@ud0s4.net
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   i+- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
2 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1186282@ud0s4.net
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1186282@ud0s4.net
1 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i   `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that102rbowman
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i    `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that101186282@ud0s4.net
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i     +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2The Natural Philosopher
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i     i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
3 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i     `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that98rbowman
5 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i      `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that97186282@ud0s4.net
5 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that92D
6 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that91186282@ud0s4.net
6 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that37rbowman
6 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i i+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that34D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i ii+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2186282@ud0s4.net
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i ii+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that17186282@ud0s4.net
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that16D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that14Rich
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that13D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that12Rich
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that10D
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  i+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that7Rich
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  ii+* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that5rbowman
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  iii`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that4Rich
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  iii +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2The Natural Philosopher
9 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  iii i`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1The Natural Philosopher
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  iii `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  ii`- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Robert Riches
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii i  `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1D
8 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i iii `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1186282@ud0s4.net
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i ii`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that14D
7 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2186282@ud0s4.net
6 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that53D
5 Dec 24  i i    i ii        i   i       `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that4Lawrence D'Oliveiro
29 Nov 24  i i    i ii        i   `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that10Lawrence D'Oliveiro
28 Nov 24  i i    i ii        `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that2Lawrence D'Oliveiro
25 Nov 24  i i    i i`* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that8vallor
24 Nov 24  i i    i `* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that3D
24 Nov 24  i i    `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Rich
21 Nov 24  i `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1Rich
20 Nov 24  +* Re: Joy of this, Joy of that606John Ames
20 Nov 24  `- Re: Joy of this, Joy of that1rbowman

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