Re: Source only vs Gentoo

Hi there,

As a Gentoo user myself, I believe I can answer your questions.

On Fri, 8 Nov 2024 13:32:47 -0500
Phillip Frabott <nntp@fulltermprivacy.com> wrote:

1: Needs to be fully source built. No pre-built binaries or
shortcuts. This includes during initial installation as well. (I'm
sure a few core pre-builts are required for the install disc/USB
flash to work. I'll accept that if I have to, but install to /dev/sda
should be built from source)

Gentoo installations are started using what's called a "stage3
tarball", which is a set of prebuilt packages corresponding to, I
believe, the system profile set (including some you might consider
optional, such as nano). After Gentoo is installed, of course, you can
recompile all of these yourself, but to start with, the supported
install procedure requires these prebuilt packages.

It's called a "stage3" because it's technically stage 3 of a
multi-stage process of creating base files for the installation of a
new Gentoo system - you can see the details at
<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Stage_file>. It's technically possible to
start from stage 1 (ie. compiling the system set yourself), but this is
both unsupported by Gentoo and also requires an existing Gentoo system
in order to do so. There are instructions at
<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Catalyst/Stage_Creation> but be aware
that this information is intended for Gentoo developers, and as such
assumes knowledge of the inner workings of Gentoo and is somewhat
sparse.

As you note, however, even with a stage1 file you're always going to
have to have *some* binaries to start with, compilers included. In
addition, as stated, it should be noted that it's always possible to
recompile the whole system after installation, which includes
automatically downloading the original upstream tarballs.

2: Needs to be fully configurable. If I want to remove /usr I should
be able to do so (I won't do that but this expresses the amount of
config freedom I want out of it).

You won't be able to remove /usr with Gentoo. The Package Manager
Specification
(<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Package_Manager_Specification>) defines
the installation offset as ${EPREFIX}/usr , where $EPREFIX is
essentially the place where Gentoo is being installed. (It's only
intended to allow you to install Gentoo on other OSes - see
<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Prefix>, so won't be useful in
your case.)

It should be noted that this will be true of *any* widely-supported
package manager on Linux. This is because /usr is a major part of the
Filesystem Hierarchy Standard
(<https://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/fhs.shtml>), which defines what
the hierarchy is and how each directory within it is to be used.
Removing /usr on a Linux system would be akin to renaming C:\Windows on
a Windows system - while probably technically possible if you tinker
enough, it won't be a good idea without the resources to make sure you
can maintain it.

Of course, it *is* technically possible. Android devices (which runs on
a Linux kernel) don't have a /usr. In fact, the closest equivalent to a
FHS root directory on an Android device would be the /system directory
(and it should be noted that this *does* have directories like bin/,
etc/, lib/, and usr/), but even so it's very different. This does,
however, come at a cost: Google have to maintain this directory
structure themselves, including making sure that all packages on the
system work with it - not an easy task!

3: Needs to support manual building from source without a package
manager should I need to. (I don't mind if the main system uses a
package manager to build from source but I want to be able to have
the option not to use a package manager once the system is up,
something that is hard to do with Arch/Manjaro)

Gentoo does indeed have its own package manager called Portage
(<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage>). It's technically not required
in order to use Gentoo, but if you don't use Portage, you're expected
to use another package manager that conforms to the Package Manager
Specification (linked in the previous answer). As of right now, the
only alternative supported package manager to do this is pkgcore
(<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Pkgcore>), I believe.

That said, even when using Portage, you are able to see the ebuild
files used to compile packages (similar in concept to Arch's PKGBUILD
files) and even create your own repositories (or "overlays") that you
can use to compile your own packages
(<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Basic_guide_to_write_Gentoo_Ebuilds>).

However, it sounds like even this might be too much for your needs?

4: I want to be able to use Systemd. I know Gentoo uses OpenRC but
I've heard I can use Systemd instead.

Yes, you can use systemd with Gentoo, and the installation guide
(<https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Full/Installation>,
assuming you're installing on an amd64 architecture) takes you through
the steps needed to use and configure it, which involves using a
different stage3 file and selecting a systemd profile.

5: I need to be able to use GRUB as a bootloader.

This is possible and covered in the installation guide.

6: I need to still dual-boot Windows 11. I work from home and
unfortunately I need to have access to Windows 11 on the same
machine. Since GRUB would be required, I assume this is a non-issue
but I'm putting it on the list anyways.

I've never tried to dual-boot Windows 11 with Gentoo myself. I believe
it should be possible, though you may have some woes with setting it up
if you need Secure Boot, due to Gentoo's nature as a self-compiled OS.
(Of course, this would also be true of other self-compiled OSes, such
as Linux From Scratch.)

Based on all that, would you all recommend Gentoo as a viable option
for my requirements? If not, what would be other options you'd
recommend that fit all these requirements?

Given your needs, I'd probably say that as highly customisable as
Gentoo is (and it really is *very* customisable), it probably doesn't
meet your needs. I actually doubt that anything other than Linux From
Scratch is going to meet your needs, but Gentoo certainly comes the
closest.

Linux From Scratch (<https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/>) is likely the
experience you're looking for, but be warned as it's a lot to get
through, being mostly intended for educational purposes rather than as
a viable operating system (although people have managed to make it
such). You may also have problems if you require Secure Boot, though
I'm not well-versed in this myself.

In general, every package manager out there is going to assume certain
things about your system (such as the presence of /usr and its layout,
as stated previously). If you were to want to not have a /usr, you're
almost certainly going to have to roll your own package manager. (Or
just not have one at all, but treading that path will cause you to very
quickly learn why even the most basic package managers exist -
dependency hell is not fun!)

Hopefully this answers the questions you had! Good luck on finding an
appropriate distribution for your needs.

 - Sophie.