Re: The Joy of *small* business

On 12/21/24 4:54 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:

On 12/20/24 4:18 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:

    However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
    quite early and were not over-run.

The local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement
for a
few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after
2000BCE.

>
   I'd heard that - but don't ask me for a ref.
>

See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
the past 8000 years.

>
   As I kinda menntioned in all this ... there's really just no such
   thing as 'genetic purity' in Europe.

 Or anywhere else. You only get genetic purity in very isolated
populations, and they start building up inherited diseases real
quick. See niche dog breeds for a non-human example.

   This explains the British upper class  :-)

   Over thousands of years various people/groups kept moving around and
   moving around and screwing anything interesting they encountered.
>
   So, is 'nation' more a CULTURAL THING instead ?

 Absolutely yes. People group themselves in all sorts of ways: shared
language, shared religion, shared territory, shared enemy, shared
preferred computing platform. Pretty much anything you can think of.
 

   'Culture' seems more resilient - genes rather
   secondary.
>
   As for the Basques ... ONLY a 'Y' replacement seems
   very odd .....

 It’s not hard to imagine models that produce the result observed.
e.g. suppose (1) R1b-M269 social structures led to a surplus of males
(2) that they married ‘out’ into the Iberian neolithic population
(3) they bring their technogical innovations (presumably, nomadic
pastoralism) with them, leading to greater long-term success
(4) as, initially, a relative minority they adopt the local language
(Proto-Proto-Basque or whatever) rather than bringing an IE dialect with
them as seen elsewhere in Europe.
 Not saying that’s what happened, other models are possible and reality
is usually more complex than anything you could put in a single
paragraph, just that it’s not hard to imagine ways that it could happen.

   Ummmm ... STILL hard to imagine JUST the 'Y'. Should have
   contributed 50% of the entire genome to the kiddies.
   As for the "WAY to weird to be sure what was going on"
   factor in post-glacial Europe ... THAT I'm totally
   down with.

We were still speculating about 'Cheddar Man'. For awhile they figured
African/N.African mostly based on the length/size/profile of
bones. What LITTLE DNA they could get suggests a migrant from western
Europe, but it was a small sample. There's also question about WHAT
"western euro" actually MEANT, genetically, at the exact timeframe.

 I don’t think there’s any evidence that he was a migrant at all.  His
genetics seem to be comparable to older remains from Britain and
Ireland.

   The poor old guy has spent a long time being what
   various entities WANTED him to be for political
   reasons. MAY still be ... give it another 25 years
   and more testing  :-)
   Remember what they did to the Neanderthals in
   the 1800s :
https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/correze-man-neanderthal-reconstructed-illustrated-london-news-ltdmar.jpg
   NOW they're depicted pretty much like someone you'd
   see along the roadside in a Slavic farm community.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9673/production/_127151583_gettyimages-1235088802.jpg
https://cdn.sci.news/images/enlarge11/image_12376e-Neanderthal.jpg
   I expect BOTH depictions are biased.
   Likely they DO live on in a corrupted cultural context,
   as the stories of 'trolls' and 'ogres'.
   Saw something recently, tracking-back of some genes,
   that suggests the body hair went away possibly as
   far back as 'Lucy' and friends. YET the depictions
   always still show shaggy Wookies ...
   Looks like most of the dinos had colorful 'pin-feathers'
   too, not grey-green 'reptile skin'. It will take the
   IMAGE of them 50-100 years to catch up with the research.
   Oh - good one ! This is supposedly a "Neanderthal Museum"
   in Germany :
https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/22-july-2022-neanderthal-museum-germany-detailed-wax-figure-neanderthal-prehistoric-caveman-with-spear-museum-human-sapiens-anthropology-science-theory-evolution_984126-1453.jpg?w=1800
   Tall, skinny, long legs, very 'black', very "African" ... while
   we've long long known that lighter skin was inherited from the
   Neanderthals - who were stocky, robust, barrel-chested and had
   kinda short legs just from the skeletons  :-)
   The humans who met them didn't look like those wax
   figures either.
   Whose 'science' is going on HERE ?
   While LABELED as 'Neanderthal' it MIGHT actually be
   a depiction of Erectus instead ... but, aside from
   skeletal bits, we have LITTLE idea what HE actually
   looked like. Coulda looked more like Brit royals ....