Re: Proving the: Simulating termination analyzer Principle

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c theory 
Sujet : Re: Proving the: Simulating termination analyzer Principle
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 05. Apr 2025, 23:11:55
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <7336d8871b2f4ca6a10ae72602f466eaf1a84b86@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2
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On 4/5/25 4:51 PM, olcott wrote:
*Simulating termination analyzer Principle*
It is always correct for any simulating termination
analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input that
would otherwise prevent its own termination.
 void DDD()
{
    HHH(DDD);
    return;
}
 Anyone knowing the C programming language knows
that DDD simulated by HHH by any correct pure
simulator would prevent HHH from terminating.
 
Which means it must be CORRECT, per the definition of the mapping that the decider is supposed to be deciding on, which for a Halt Decider/Termination Analyzer is the mapping of the direct execution of the program described by the input. It MUST accept ANY program that will halt by the definition, and must any program that will never halt, even after running for an unbounded number of steps.
The partial emulation of the input doesn't matter, and the input MUST represent a COMPLETE program, and thus for your above, MUST include the code for the SPECIFIC HHH that it is designed to be foiling, which is your orignal HHH defined in Halt7.c which DOES abort its emulation and returns 0.
Since that direct execution will clearly halt (as shown by the actually correct emulation done by HHH1) we can say that you HHH, which DOES abort its emulation, did not have the proper justifcatio for its behavior.
Note, since DDD calls that specific HHH, the fact that HHH behaves that was is what keeps it from preventing its own termination.
Your logic makes the strawman fallacy of presuming you change the input when you change HHH, but that violates the definition of DDD being a program.
Note, your final paragraph is just a collection of word salad, as your HHH is NOT a "pure simulator" but only a partial simulator, so is self-contradictory.
It seems you want to look at a totally different version of the input, where both HHH are actually correct simulators, and yes, in that case DDD will be non-haltig, but that HHH fails to be the needed decider, and this DDD is not the same DDD as given to your actual HHH, as your actual HHH gives an answer, and thus doesn't do that actually correct simulation.
So, all you are doing is proving your ignorance of what you are talking about because you don't understand the meaning of the words, and that you have chosen to just lie about what you are doing as you know you are changing definitions, and thus using the strawman argument that you know to be invalid, as you keep on projecting and accusing everyone else of committing while you are doing it yourself.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
4 Apr 25 * DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)459olcott
4 Apr 25 +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)6Richard Damon
4 Apr 25 i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5olcott
4 Apr 25 i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
5 Apr 25 i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
5 Apr 25 i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
4 Apr 25 i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Mikko
4 Apr 25 +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Mikko
5 Apr 25 +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)446olcott
5 Apr 25 i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)445Mikko
5 Apr 25 i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)444olcott
6 Apr 25 i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)443Mikko
6 Apr 25 i   `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)442olcott
6 Apr 25 i    +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Richard Damon
7 Apr 25 i    i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
7 Apr 25 i    i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
8 Apr 25 i    i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
8 Apr 25 i    i   `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
7 Apr 25 i    `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)436Mikko
8 Apr 25 i     `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)435olcott
8 Apr 25 i      +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)428Fred. Zwarts
8 Apr 25 i      i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)427olcott
8 Apr 25 i      i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)425Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)424olcott
9 Apr 25 i      i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)422Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i i+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i ii+- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i ii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)414olcott
9 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)30dbush
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)29olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)15dbush
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)14olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)10dbush
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)9olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7dbush
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)6olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i   `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)12Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)11olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i   +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)8dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Mikko
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i  `* Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i   +- Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i   `- Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i   `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i    `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)370Mikko
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)369olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)366Mikko
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)362Richard Heathfield
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i ii+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)357olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii+- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)355joes
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Richard Heathfield
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Heathfield
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)349olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)343dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots342olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots18dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots17olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots15dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots14olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots12dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots11olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots5dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots4olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
22 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1joes
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots4joes
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots3olcott
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1dbush
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots312Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots311olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots7dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots6olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots302joes
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots11joes
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Fred. Zwarts
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
12 Apr 25 i      i i i i ii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Mikko
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
10 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Fred. Zwarts
13 Apr 25 i      i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)9joes
10 Apr 25 i      i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
9 Apr 25 i      i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
8 Apr 25 i      +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Mikko
8 Apr 25 i      `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
5 Apr 25 `* Proving the: Simulating termination analyzer Principle5olcott

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