Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning

Re: True on the basis of meaning

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning
De : mikko.levanto (at) *nospam* iki.fi (Mikko)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 13. May 2024, 10:52:11

Autres entêtes

Organisation : -
Message-ID : <v1skbr$3caip$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
User-Agent : Unison/2.2

On 2024-05-12 17:19:48 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/12/2024 10:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 14:22:25 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/12/2024 2:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-11 04:27:03 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/10/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/10/2024 10:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 10:36 PM, olcott wrote:
The entire body of expressions that are {true on the basis of their
meaning} involves nothing more or less than stipulated relations between
finite strings.

You do know that what you are describing when applied to Formal Systems are the axioms of the system and the most primitively provable theorems.

YES and there are axioms that comprise the verbal model of the
actual world, thus Quine was wrong.
You don't understand what Quite was talking about,

I don't need to know anything about what he was talking about
except that he disagreed with {true on the basis or meaning}.
I don't care or need to know how he got to an incorrect answer.

You don't seem to understand what "Formal Logic" actually means.

Ultimately it is anchored in stipulated relations between finite
strings (AKA axioms) and expressions derived from applying truth
preserving operations to these axioms.
Which you don't seem to understand what that means.

I understand this much more deeply than you do.
In and about formal logic there is no valid deep understanding. Only
a shallow understanding can be valid.

It turns out that ALL {true on the basis of meaning} that includes
ALL of logic and math has its entire foundation in relations between
finite strings. Some are stipulated to be true (axioms) and some
are derived by applying truth preserving operations to these axioms.
Usually the word "true" is not used when talking about uninterpreted
formal systems. Axioms and what can be inferred from axioms are called
"theorems". Theorems can be true in some interpretations and false in
another. If the system is incosistent then there is no interpretation
where all axioms are true.

I am not talking about how these things are usually spoken of. I am
talking about my unique contribution to the actual philosophical
foundation of {true on the basis of meaning}.

What matters is that you are not talking about those things as they
are usually spoken of. The consequence is that nobody is going to
understand you, and the consequence of that probably is that you
cannot contribute.

This is entirely comprised of relations between finite strings:
some of which are stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean
true, and others derived from applying truth preserving operations
to these finite string.

Most of that doesn't require any stipulations about semantics but
can be done with finite strings and their relations. Semantics is
only needed to choose interesting problems and, if a problem can
be solved, to interprete the solution.

This is approximately equivalent to proofs from axioms.

It shouod be exactly equivalent.

It is not exactly the same thing because an infinite sequence of
inference steps may sometimes be required.

Infinite sequences create more problem than they solve. For example,
you can prove that 1 = 2 with the infinite sequence
1, 1, 1, ..., 2, 2, 2
where every element (except the first one) is equal to preceding element
so by transitivity every element should be equal to the first one.

It is also not exactly the same because some proofs are not restricted
to truth preserving operations.

A sequence of inferences that can derive a false conclusion from true
premises should not be called a "proof".
--
Mikko

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
11 May 24	True on the basis of meaning	156	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	155	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	154	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	153	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	152	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	150	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	149	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	139	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	138	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	137	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	136	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	127	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	126	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	125	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	124	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	123	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	122	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	119	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	118	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	117	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	116	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	115	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	114	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	113	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	wij
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	89	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	88	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	78	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	77	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	76	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	75	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	74	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	73	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	72	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	71	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	68	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	67	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	66	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	65	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	64	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	59	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	58	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	57	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	56	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	55	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	54	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	53	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	50	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	49	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	48	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	47	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	46	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	45	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	44	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	43	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	42	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	14	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	12	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	11	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	10	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	26	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	8	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	9	Mikko