Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c theory 
Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 20. May 2024, 18:48:40
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v2g2dp$3ugq$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/20/2024 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-19 14:15:51 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 5/19/2024 9:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-19 13:41:56 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/19/2024 6:55 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 5:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 3:46 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 12:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 11:56 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 9:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 7:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
No, your system contradicts itself.
>
>
You have never shown this.
The most you have shown is a lack of understanding of the
Truth Teller Paradox.
>
No, I have, but you don't understand the proof, it seems because you don't know what a "Truth Predicate" has been defined to be.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
And thus, When True(L, p) established a sequence of truth preserving operations eminationg from ~True(L, p) by returning false, it contradicts itself. The problem is that True, in making an answer of false, has asserted that such a sequence exists.
>
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
 >> On 5/13/2024 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) ...
 >>
 >> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
 >> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive p?
 > No, so True(L, p) is false
 >>
 >> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
 >> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
 >
 > No, so False(L, p) is false,
 >
>
*To help you concentrate I repeated this*
The Liar Paradox and your formalized Liar Paradox both
contradict themselves that is why they must be screened
out as type mismatch error non-truth-bearers *BEFORE THAT OCCURS*
>
And the Truth Predicate isn't allowed to "filter" out expressions.
>
>
YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T
WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN
THE FORMAL SYSTEM USES THE TRUE AND FALSE PREDICATE
TO FILTER OUT TYPE MISMATCH ERROR
>
The first thing that the formal system does with any
arbitrary finite string input is see if it is a Truth-bearer:
Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
No, we can ask True(L, x) for any expression x and get an answer.
>
>
The system is designed so you can ask this, yet non-truth-bearers
are rejected before True(L, x) is allowed to be called.
>
>
>
>
Not allowed.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
A set of finite string semantic meanings that form an accurate
verbal model of the general knowledge of the actual world that
form a finite set of finite strings that are stipulated to have
the semantic value of Boolean true.
>
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
>
>
So, for a statement x to be false, it says that there must be a sequence of truth perserving operations that derive ~x from, right?
>
Yes we must build from mutual agreement, good.
>
So do you still say that for p defined in L as ~True(L, p) that your definition will say that True(L, p) will return false?
>
>
It is the perfectly isomorphic to this:
True(English, "This sentence is not true")
>
>
>
Nope, Because "This sentece is not true" can be a non-truth-bearer, but by its definition, True(L, x) can not.
>
>
True(L,x) is always a truth bearer.
when x is defined as True(L,x) then x is not a truth bearer.
>
When x is defined as True(L,x) then x is what True(L,x) is,
in this case a truth bearer.
 
This is known as the Truth Teller Paradox
 Doesn't matter. But ir you say that "x is not a truth bearer" then,
by a truth preserving transformation, you imply that True(L,x) is
True(English, "a cat is an animal) is true
LP := ~True(L, LP) expands to ~True(~True(~True(~True(...))))
TT := True(L, TT) expands to True(True(True(True(...))))

not a truth bearer. As you already said that "True(L,x)" is always
a truth bearer, you imply, by another truth preeserving transformation,
that something both is and is not a truth bearer.
 
*Not at all*
*Prolog sees the same infinite recursion and rejects it*
?- LP = not(true_(LP)).
LP = not(true(LP)).
?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
false.
?- TT = true(TT).
TT = true(TT).
?- unify_with_occurs_check(TT, true(TT)).
false.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
18 May 24 * Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method65Richard Damon
18 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method64olcott
18 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Richard Damon
18 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
18 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Richard Damon
18 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
18 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method59Richard Damon
18 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method58olcott
18 May 24        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method57Richard Damon
18 May 24         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method56olcott
18 May 24          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method55Richard Damon
18 May 24           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method54olcott
18 May 24            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method53Richard Damon
18 May 24             +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24             i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method50olcott
18 May 24              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method49Richard Damon
18 May 24               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method48olcott
19 May 24                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method47Richard Damon
19 May 24                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method46olcott
19 May 24                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method45Richard Damon
19 May 24                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method44olcott
19 May 24                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method43Richard Damon
19 May 24                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method42olcott
19 May 24                      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
19 May 24                      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method14olcott
20 May 24                      i +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method12Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method11olcott
21 May 24                      i i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method10Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method9olcott
21 May 24                      i i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method8Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method7olcott
21 May 24                      i i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method6Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
21 May 24                      i i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
21 May 24                      i i         +- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
22 May 24                      i i         `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
20 May 24                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method26olcott
22 May 24                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)25olcott
23 May 24                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)24Richard Damon
23 May 24                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)23olcott
23 May 24                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)21Richard Damon
23 May 24                          i+* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)6olcott
23 May 24                          ii`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)5Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)4olcott
23 May 24                          ii  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)3Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)2olcott
24 May 24                          ii    `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1Richard Damon
25 May 24                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)14olcott
27 May 24                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)13olcott
27 May 24                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT12olcott
28 May 24                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT11olcott
29 May 24                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT10Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT9olcott
29 May 24                          i      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT5Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT4olcott
29 May 24                          i      i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i      i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Python
29 May 24                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i        `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
23 May 24                          `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1olcott

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