Re: Is Richard a Liar?

On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/11/2024 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-11 02:21:10 +0000, olcott said:
 

On 5/10/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 7:39 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 5:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 4:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 5:43 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 4:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 3:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 3:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 1:49 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote:

On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote:

On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said:
 

On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott:

On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said:
 

On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott said:
 

The x86utm operating system: https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm enables
one C function to execute another C function in debug step mode.
Simulating Termination analyzer H simulates the x86 machine code of its
input (using libx86emu) in debug step mode until it correctly matches a
correct non-halting behavior pattern proving that its input will never
stop running unless aborted.
 Can D correctly simulated by H terminate normally?
00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }
 *Execution Trace*
Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D);
 *keeps repeating* (unless aborted)
Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D)
 *Simulation invariant*
D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
 The above execution trace proves that (for every H/D pair of the
infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) simulated by the H that this D(D)
calls cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.

 When you say "every H/D pair" you should specify which set of pairs
you are talking about. As you don't, your words don't mean anything.
 

 Every H/D pair in the universe where D(D) is simulated by the
same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This involves 1 to ∞ steps of D
and also includes zero to ∞ recursive simulations where H
H simulates itself simulating D(D).

 "In the universe" is not a set. In typical set theories like ZFC there
is no universal set.

 

 This template defines an infinite set of finite string H/D pairs where each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls this same H(D,D).
 These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the one to ∞ simulated steps of D and involve zero to ∞ recursive simulations of H simulating itself simulating D(D). Every time Lines 1,2,3 are simulated again defines
one more level of recursive simulation.
 1st element of H/D pairs 1 step  of D  is simulated by H
2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are simulated by H
3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are simulated by H
 4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are simulated by H
this begins the first recursive simulation at line 01
 5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are simulated by
next step of the first recursive simulation at line 02
 6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are simulated by
last step of the first recursive simulation at line 03
 7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are simulated by H
this begins the second recursive simulation at line 01

 Is this the definition of the infinite set of H? We can think of many more simulations that only these.

 This template defines an infinite set of finite string H/D pairs where
each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls this same H(D,D).
 No-one can possibly show one element of this set where D(D) reaches
past its own line 03.

 If H is a decider of any kind then the D build from it reaches its line
4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of D by H reaches that line
is another question.
 

 *My fully operational code proves otherwise*
 I seems like you guys don't have a clue about how infinite
recursion works. You can run the code and see that I am correct.
 I have one concrete instance as fully operational code.
https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c
line 555 u32 HH(ptr P, ptr I) its input in on
line 932 int DD(int (*x)())

 HH is completely broken - it uses a global variable which is allows HH to detect whether it is the outer HH or a nested (simulated) HH. As a result, the nested HH behaves completely differently to the outer HH - I mean /completely/ differently: it goes through a totally separate "I am called in nested mode" code path!
 

 The encoding of HH is not the pure function that it needs to be to
be a computable function.
 *Maybe you can settle this*
 The disagreement is entirely over an enormously much simpler thing.
The disagreement is that Richard says that a D simulated by H could
reach past its own line 03 and halt.

 Here's the proof:
 1. A simulation always produces an identical execution trace to the direct execution.

 *When pathological self-reference is involved this is counter-factual*
That no one can possibly show the steps of how D simulated by H possibly
reach line 06 of H proves this.

  

 Richard tried to get away with D never simulated by H as an example
of D simulated by H:

 Nope, you are looking at the WRONG message, and I have told you this multiple times.

 Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
*When you interpret*
On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > On 5/1/24 11:51 AM, olcott wrote:
*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 as *D NEVER simulated by H*
 you have shown a reckless disregard for the truth
that would win a defamation case.
 

 My H simulated 0 steps of D, of which was ALL of the steps it simulated correctly.

 *THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*

 You haven't GIVEN a defined SPEC.
 The only definition within Computation Theory, which is the space you started in, and claim to get to, doesn't have "aborted" simulations, so you don't have a defintion of what simulatioin actually means, other than doing something that tells you something about the behavior of what is simulated.
 My H does that, by aborting its "simulation" in shows that THIS H did not simulate its input to a final state.
 Just the same result that you partial set of H's showed.
 

*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*
*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*
*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*
 *Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 *Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 *Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 *Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 *Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
 

 Right, and simulating zero steps correctly and them aborting means H

 *cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*

 Aborted after 0 steps which is all that that H does.
 

 *cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*

 

 *cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*
 *cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*
 *cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*
 

 You can start and then immediately stop an not make any progress.
 A bit like your "first point after 0".
 You just don't understand how logic works.
 And your definition is also illogical, as H either DOES or DOES NOT abort its simulation.
 

 *WRONG DICHOTOMY STRAW-MAN DECEPTION*

 But there is no Dichotomy, as there is just H, an not something to compare it to.
 The other thing you compare it to is not H.
 

"...cannot possibly stop running unless aborted"
*stops running if not aborted or keeps running if not aborted*

 But *THE* H does one or the other.
 

 Is your employer aware that your memory is this bad?
Are you in management where slick double-talk can hide this?

 Well, since you don't have an employer, I guess we can tell who performs better.
 

 *I have repeated time and again that I have always been referring*
*to the specific infinite set of H/D pairs specified below*

 And how does MAIN call an "Infinite set" of functions?
 And how is that an exact implementation of the Linz Proof, were H and H^ are specific (but arbitrary) machines?
 

 A "specific" and "arbitrary" machine is like a
very tiny little enormously huge thing.
 We can have specific elements of an infinite set such
that every element of this set has common properties.

 But the element is different then the set.
 

 One element of any type of set theory set is different
THAN (not then) the whole set, WELL DUH !!!

 Right, so why do you lie that H is the SET, and not one element at a time.
 

 Every element of natural numbers > 5 shares that common
property of > 5.
 

Right, but the set of natural numbers n > 5 doesn't have the property that the SET (as a set) is greater than 5, since that property is not a property of the set.
 Just like HALTING is a property of Program, not "sets of programs" so your POOP is just illogical.
 

*Richard can get this and lies about it*
*Richard can get this and lies about it*
*Richard can get this and lies about it*
*Richard can get this and lies about it*
 Every D simulated by H shares the property that it is
simulated by H.

 Nope, because "being simulated by" is not a property of the machine iteself, but of the decider looking at it.
 

 Every D NEVER simulated by H forms a set that is disjoint
from the above set.
 

 But simulating zero steps correctly *IS* simulating ALL steps simulated correctly if you stop before getting to step 1.
 You just don't understand the nature of universal qualifiers.
 Or the actual general meaning of "simulation"
 

 Vacuously true is a bogus concept.

 If something is vacuously true then it is provably true, so if you
see "vacuously true" in a positive sentence you may read it as if
it were "provably true". The word "vacuously" means that the proof
is very short.
 If something is not vacuously true then it may be otherwise true,
so saning "not vacuously true" does not say very much.
 

 We have a simpler way to prove Richard is WRONG
I have used the conventional term-of-the-art {Termination Analyzer}
in the title of my paper since 2023/06/19
*Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*

It is not a conventional term or the art if you use it in a meaning
that is not its conventional meaning. You have used the term
"termination analyzer" in sentences that would be false nor non-sense
if the conventional meaning would apply.

I am working on providing an academic quality definition of this
term.

The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.
--
Mikko