Re: True on the basis of meaning

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c theory 
Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning
De : mikko.levanto (at) *nospam* iki.fi (Mikko)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 13. May 2024, 10:52:11
Autres entêtes
Organisation : -
Message-ID : <v1skbr$3caip$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
User-Agent : Unison/2.2
On 2024-05-12 17:19:48 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/12/2024 10:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 14:22:25 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 5/12/2024 2:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-11 04:27:03 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 5/10/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/10/2024 10:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 10:36 PM, olcott wrote:
The entire body of expressions that are {true on the basis of their
meaning} involves nothing more or less than stipulated relations between
finite strings.
 
 You do know that what you are describing when applied to Formal Systems are the axioms of the system and the most primitively provable theorems.
 
 YES and there are axioms that comprise the verbal model of the
actual world, thus Quine was wrong.
 You don't understand what Quite was talking about,
 
 I don't need to know anything about what he was talking about
except that he disagreed with {true on the basis or meaning}.
I don't care or need to know how he got to an incorrect answer.
 
 
 You don't seem to understand what "Formal Logic" actually means.
 
 Ultimately it is anchored in stipulated relations between finite
strings (AKA axioms) and expressions derived from applying truth
preserving operations to these axioms.
 Which you don't seem to understand what that means.
 
 I understand this much more deeply than you do.
 In and about formal logic there is no valid deep understanding. Only
a shallow understanding can be valid.
 
 It turns out that ALL {true on the basis of meaning} that includes
ALL of logic and math has its entire foundation in relations between
finite strings. Some are stipulated to be true (axioms) and some
are derived by applying truth preserving operations to these axioms.
 Usually the word "true" is not used when talking about uninterpreted
formal systems. Axioms and what can be inferred from axioms are called
"theorems". Theorems can be true in some interpretations and false in
another. If the system is incosistent then there is no interpretation
where all axioms are true.
 
 I am not talking about how these things are usually spoken of. I am
talking about my unique contribution to the actual philosophical
foundation of {true on the basis of meaning}.
What matters is that you are not talking about those things as they
are usually spoken of. The consequence is that nobody is going to
understand you, and the consequence of that probably is that you
cannot contribute.

This is entirely comprised of relations between finite strings:
some of which are stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean
true, and others derived from applying truth preserving operations
to these finite string.
Most of that doesn't require any stipulations about semantics but
can be done with finite strings and their relations. Semantics is
only needed to choose interesting problems and, if a problem can
be solved, to interprete the solution.

This is approximately equivalent to proofs from axioms.
It shouod be exactly equivalent.

It is not exactly the same thing because an infinite sequence of
inference steps may sometimes be required.
Infinite sequences create more problem than they solve. For example,
you can prove that 1 = 2 with the infinite sequence
   1, 1, 1, ..., 2, 2, 2
where every element (except the first one) is equal to preceding element
so by transitivity every element should be equal to the first one.

It is also not exactly the same because some proofs are not restricted
to truth preserving operations.
A sequence of inferences that can derive a false conclusion from true
premises should not be called a "proof".
--
Mikko

Date Sujet#  Auteur
11 May 24 * True on the basis of meaning156olcott
11 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning155Richard Damon
11 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning154olcott
11 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning153Richard Damon
11 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning152olcott
11 May 24     +- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
12 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning150olcott
12 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning149olcott
12 May 24       +* Re: True on the basis of meaning139Richard Damon
12 May 24       i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning138olcott
12 May 24       i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning137Richard Damon
12 May 24       i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning136olcott
12 May 24       i   +* Re: True on the basis of meaning127Richard Damon
12 May 24       i   i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning126olcott
13 May 24       i   i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning125Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning124olcott
13 May 24       i   i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning123Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning122olcott
13 May 24       i   i     +* Re: True on the basis of meaning2olcott
13 May 24       i   i     i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning119Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning118olcott
13 May 24       i   i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning117Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning116olcott
13 May 24       i   i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning115Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !114olcott
14 May 24       i   i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !113Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i            +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !2olcott
14 May 24       i   i            i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !1Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method110olcott
14 May 24       i   i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method109Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
14 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
14 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              i +- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1wij
14 May 24       i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i+- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2immibis
16 May 24       i   i              i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method89olcott
16 May 24       i   i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method88Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method87olcott
16 May 24       i   i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method86Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
17 May 24       i   i                  i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                  i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method78olcott
16 May 24       i   i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method77Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method76olcott
17 May 24       i   i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method75Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method74olcott
17 May 24       i   i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method73Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method72olcott
17 May 24       i   i                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method71Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method68olcott
17 May 24       i   i                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method67Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method66olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method65Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method64olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method59Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method58olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method57Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method56olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method55Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method54olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method53Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i               +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i               i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method50olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method49Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method48olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method47Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method46olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method45Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method44olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method43Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method42olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                        +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                        i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method14olcott
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method12Richard Damon
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method11olcott
21 May 24       i   i                          i                        i i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method10Richard Damon
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method26olcott
17 May 24       i   i                          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
13 May 24       i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning8olcott
13 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning9Mikko

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