Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

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Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 19. May 2024, 04:47:27
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v2bsog$36vvc$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/18/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 5:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 3:46 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 12:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 11:56 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 9:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 7:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
No, your system contradicts itself.
>
>
You have never shown this.
The most you have shown is a lack of understanding of the
Truth Teller Paradox.
>
No, I have, but you don't understand the proof, it seems because you don't know what a "Truth Predicate" has been defined to be.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
And thus, When True(L, p) established a sequence of truth preserving operations eminationg from ~True(L, p) by returning false, it contradicts itself. The problem is that True, in making an answer of false, has asserted that such a sequence exists.
>
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
 >> On 5/13/2024 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) ...
 >>
 >> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
 >> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive p?
 > No, so True(L, p) is false
 >>
 >> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
 >> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
 >
 > No, so False(L, p) is false,
 >
>
*To help you concentrate I repeated this*
The Liar Paradox and your formalized Liar Paradox both
contradict themselves that is why they must be screened
out as type mismatch error non-truth-bearers *BEFORE THAT OCCURS*
>
And the Truth Predicate isn't allowed to "filter" out expressions.
>
>
YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T
WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN
THE FORMAL SYSTEM USES THE TRUE AND FALSE PREDICATE
TO FILTER OUT TYPE MISMATCH ERROR
>
The first thing that the formal system does with any
arbitrary finite string input is see if it is a Truth-bearer:
Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
No, we can ask True(L, x) for any expression x and get an answer.
>
>
The system is designed so you can ask this, yet non-truth-bearers
are rejected before True(L, x) is allowed to be called.
>
>
>
>
Not allowed.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
A set of finite string semantic meanings that form an accurate
verbal model of the general knowledge of the actual world that
form a finite set of finite strings that are stipulated to have
the semantic value of Boolean true.
>
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
>
 So, for a statement x to be false, it says that there must be a sequence of truth perserving operations that derive ~x from, right?
 
Yes we must build from mutual agreement, good.

So do you still say that for p defined in L as ~True(L, p) that your definition will say that True(L, p) will return false?
 
It is the perfectly isomorphic to this:
True(English, "This sentence is not true")

That means that the predicate establishes that there IS a seriers of truth perservion operations that derive the expreson ~True(L, p).
 
You keep confusing:
This sentence is not true.
with
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true".
I have spent 20,000 hours on this YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY ACTUAL MISTAKE.

And if so, doesnt that mean that the truth value of p will be true, since p is defined as the logical negation of True(L, p), which we just establish HAS a sequence of truth perservion operations as indicated by the truth predicate.
 
In Prolog both the Liar Paradox and the Truth Teller Paradox
get stuck in an infinite loop (technically a cycle in the directed
graph of their evaluation sequence).
https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
Catches this cycle and reject it.
This sentence is not true.
What is it not true about?
It is not true about being not true.
What is it not true about being not true about?
It is not true about being not true about being not true...

and if so, doesn't that mean that your True(L, x) just returned the false value for an input that was, by your definitions, true?
 How does that work?
 
It must work the same as Prolog and detect cycles
in its evaluation graph.

Deflect again and I will just point out that you have refused to answer because you are just admitting you can't figure out how to fix your broken system.
 After all, you have proven that just because you thinkl something is self-evedently true, doesn't mean that it is true, as you sense of self-evedent is just broken.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
18 May 24 * Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method65Richard Damon
18 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method64olcott
18 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Richard Damon
18 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
18 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Richard Damon
18 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
18 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method59Richard Damon
18 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method58olcott
18 May 24        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method57Richard Damon
18 May 24         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method56olcott
18 May 24          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method55Richard Damon
18 May 24           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method54olcott
18 May 24            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method53Richard Damon
18 May 24             +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24             i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method50olcott
18 May 24              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method49Richard Damon
18 May 24               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method48olcott
19 May 24                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method47Richard Damon
19 May 24                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method46olcott
19 May 24                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method45Richard Damon
19 May 24                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method44olcott
19 May 24                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method43Richard Damon
19 May 24                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method42olcott
19 May 24                      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
19 May 24                      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method14olcott
20 May 24                      i +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method12Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method11olcott
21 May 24                      i i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method10Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method9olcott
21 May 24                      i i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method8Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method7olcott
21 May 24                      i i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method6Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
21 May 24                      i i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
21 May 24                      i i         +- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
22 May 24                      i i         `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
20 May 24                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method26olcott
22 May 24                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)25olcott
23 May 24                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)24Richard Damon
23 May 24                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)23olcott
23 May 24                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)21Richard Damon
23 May 24                          i+* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)6olcott
23 May 24                          ii`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)5Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)4olcott
23 May 24                          ii  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)3Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)2olcott
24 May 24                          ii    `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1Richard Damon
25 May 24                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)14olcott
27 May 24                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)13olcott
27 May 24                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT12olcott
28 May 24                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT11olcott
29 May 24                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT10Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT9olcott
29 May 24                          i      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT5Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT4olcott
29 May 24                          i      i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i      i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Python
29 May 24                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i        `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
23 May 24                          `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1olcott

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