Re: Sequence of sequence, selection and iteration matters --- Ben agrees

On 7/9/24 10:24 AM, olcott wrote:

On 7/9/2024 1:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-07-08 23:45:16 +0000, olcott said:
>

On 7/8/2024 6:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/8/24 9:04 AM, olcott wrote:

On 7/8/2024 2:22 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-07-07 14:16:10 +0000, olcott said:
>

_DDD()
[00002172] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
[0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
[00002182] 5d               pop ebp
[00002183] c3               ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>
Sufficient knowledge of the x86 language conclusively proves
that the call from DDD correctly emulated by HHH to HHH(DDD)
cannot possibly return for any pure function HHH.

>
Suffifcient knowledge of the x86 language makes obvious that
DDD returns if and only if HHH returns.
>

>
That is insufficient knowledge. Sufficient knowledge proves that
DDD correctly simulated by HHH meets this criteria.

>
Nope, YOU have the insufficent knowledge, since you don't understand that the x86 language says programs are deterministic, and their behavior is fully establish when they are written, and running or simulating them is only a way to observe that behavior, and the only CORRECT observation of all the behavior, so letting that operation reach its final state.
>

>
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
     until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
     stop running unless aborted then
>
     H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
     specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
</MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>
*Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*

>
How is that relevant? Even if he did, you can't prove that he was not
mistaken. If you could. you wouldn't need to mention him.
>

*Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
*Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's
 > trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
 > *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
...
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it were not
 > halted.  That much is a truism.
>
*Ben fails to understand this*
If HHH reported that it did not need to abort DDD
before it aborted DDD then HHH would be lying.

>
If he fails to understand one thing you should not assume that
he does understand another thing.
>

 Ben proves that he agrees that the If part of the Professor
Sipser approved criteria has been met when he paraphrases
this into his own words:

Nope, he agreed that based on YOUR definiton of the words (and not the conventional one that Professor Sipser uses) that your H is a correct POOP decider (since what it decides is NOT "Halting" but some strange concept of "Needed to abort" based on things being able to be things they are not).

 On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt
 > if it were not halted.  That much is a truism.
 *Here is the part that Ben fails to understand*
*I have never explained this issue to Ben this clearly before*
Ben seems to believe that HHH must report that it need not
abort its emulation of DDD because AFTER HHH has already
aborted this emulation DDD does not need to be aborted.
 

Right, To be a Halt Decider, HHH must report on the actual behavior of the direct execution of the input, and if that halts, then H didn't actually need to have done the abort it did. If you changed H to not abort, and built D by the actual rules so it still had its copy of the original H, you would see that the non-aborting H' would be able to simulate the D calling the aborting H would have the aborting H return to it and it halts.
Thus, H really didn't need to abort, but only because it did. You created the paradox by not using the right computation model, as your H and P are not actualy seperate computations as needed.