Re: Even Google AI Overview understands me now --- different execution traces have different behavior !!!

On 10/4/24 9:53 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/4/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/4/24 1:14 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/4/2024 5:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/3/24 10:48 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/3/2024 8:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/3/24 6:46 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/3/2024 6:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/2/24 10:09 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/2/2024 5:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/2/24 10:39 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/2/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/1/24 7:26 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/1/2024 12:58 PM, joes wrote:

Am Tue, 01 Oct 2024 12:31:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:

On 10/1/2024 8:09 AM, joes wrote:

Am Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:39:18 -0500 schrieb olcott:

On 10/1/2024 7:19 AM, olcott wrote:

https://www.google.com/search?
>

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q=Termination+Analyzer+H+is+Not+Fooled+by+Pathological+Input+D&sca_esv=889093c5cb21af9e&sca_upv=1&source=hp&ei=Muf7ZpOyMZHfwN4PwYL2gAc&iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZvv1Qg04jNg2ze170z3a8BSGu8pA29Fj&ved=0ahUKEwiTk7zkk-2IAxWRL9AFHUGBHXAQ4dUDCBg&uact=5&oq=Termination+Analyzer+H+is+Not+Fooled+by+Pathological+Input+D&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IjxUZXJtaW5hdGlvbiBBbmFseXplciBIIGlzIE5vdCBGb29sZWQgYnkgUGF0aG9sb2dpY2FsIElucHV0IERIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-

AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcA&sclient=gws-wiz

https://chatgpt.com/ share/66fbec5c-7b10-8011-9ce6-3c26424cb21c

It sounds like it’s trained on your spam. LLMs don’t know anything
anyway.

>

I asked: „What happens when HHH tries to simulate itself?”
ChatGPT: [my comments in brackets]

>

### 1. **Self-Invocation in HHH**
If `HHH` calls itself (i.e., `HHH(HHH)`), it creates an infinite loop
of calls unless there is some form of termination condition built into
`HHH`.
Without such a condition, `HHH` would never return, resulting in non-
termination.
[So not a decider.]
>
### 2. **Halting Criteria**
In a well-designed termination analyzer, `HHH` would need to have
specific logic to prevent endless recursion:

>

[Not present.]
>
### 3. **Practical Consequences**
If `HHH` lacks the ability to handle self-referential calls correctly:
- **Stack Overflow**: Continuous self-invocation will eventually
exhaust the stack memory, leading to a stack overflow error.
[Not considered in theory.]
- **Incorrect Results**: If not designed carefully, it may lead to an
incorrect conclusion about halting, misrepresenting itself as either
halting or non-halting.
>
### 4. **Best Practices for Termination Analyzers**
To avoid these pitfalls, a termination analyzer should implement:
- **Guard Clauses**: Checks at the beginning of the function to prevent
unnecessary self-simulation.
- **State Management**: A way to track the functions being analyzed,
allowing `HHH` to recognize if it's being invoked with itself and act
accordingly.
>
### Conclusion In summary, if `HHH` tries to simulate itself without
proper safeguards,
it risks falling into an infinite recursion or causing a stack
overflow. A robust design would include checks to prevent
self-invocation, ensuring the termination analyzer can handle all
cases, including its own function,
gracefully.
>

*You can continue this conversation with ChatGPT*

I’ll leave that to you.

Click on the link and see how it answers this question:
Is H a Halt Decider for D?

You should feed it our objections.
If you believe in it only when you prompt it, it is not suited as an
authority (fallacious anyway).
>

>
You feed it your objections.
It will tell you how and why you are wrong.
>

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No, it will tell you something that matches the words you told it.
>
You don't seem to understand what Large Language Models are.
>
>
You seem to forget that LLM know nothing of the "truth", only what matches their training data.
>
They are know to be liars, just like you.

>
In the case of their evaluation of my work they are correct.
>
*Try this yourself*
>
https://chatgpt.com/share/66fbec5c-7b10-8011-9ce6-3c26424cb21c
>
Does HHH have to abort its emulation of DDD to prevent the infinite execution of DDD?
>
>

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Try asking it
>
Why is it ok for HHH to say that DDD doesn't halt when it will when run?
>

>
You guys try to pretend that the pathological relationship between
HHH and DDD does not make any difference to the behavior of DDD
knowing full well that it does make a difference.
>
When two execution traces differ and one expects the same behavior
this is the same as analogous to the insanity of doing the exact
same thing and expecting different results. It is merely the other
side. Doing an entirely different thing and expecting the same
results is also quite crazy.
>

>
No, YOU don't seem to understand that the while the pathological relationship DOES affect the behavior of DDD, it doesn't mean that the "correct simulation" of DDD (by anybody) will differ from the actual behavior of DDD.
>

>
If the emulator ignores rather than emulates this
pathological relationship when the x86 code specifies
this pathological relationship then it is the same
kind of damned liar that you are.
>

>
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So, what did it actually EMULATE that differed?
>

>
The directly executed DDD() depends on HHH aborting what
would otherwise be its own infinite recursive emulation.

>
So? Since that is what the code of that HHH does, that is what DDD does.
>

>
When DDD is executed first it has provably different
halting behavior than when DDD is emulated by the same
emulator that it calls.
>

>
NOPE.
>
Just prove you LIE.
>
The problem is that the emulator that it calls just can not correctly emulate it, as that would require finding an N that is greater than N+1
>

 You cannot possibly provide actual coherent reasoning
to show this because you defined "correct" incorrectly..
 

No, YOU have the wrong mean9ng for correct, as you think if you stop before you get to the end, you can know what the end state is by guessing.
The fact that if HHH does EXACTLY reproduce the behavior of each instruction that its simulation sees, in the order dictated by the definition of the x86 processor, it will see EXACTLY the same of instructions doing exactly the same thing as when executed, up to the point where it stops.
Thus, your claim that it seees something different is just a LIE

That you are unable to understand that it is easily conclusively
proven (below) that the emulated HHH does emulate its DDD correctly
is why your double-talk gibberish rebuttal fails.

But then why does it get the right answer?
Note, edited traces, as you provide below, just prove you are trying to get away wioth something. and don't prove anything,
I could find some of your words and edit out pieces to make you admit you are going to hell.
While that is likely a true statement, the editing isn't the proof,
Your problem is that you think HHH(DDD) seeing DDD call HHH(DDD) is somehow proof of an infinite recursion, it isn't, as since HHH is a conditional emulator, it stops the emulation of a later layer, and thus each level is finite, and thus halting.
Your logic is based on the error that two equals infinity.

 _DDD()
[00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
[0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002182] 5d         pop ebp
[00002183] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
 _main()
[00002192] 55         push ebp
[00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
[0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000021a2] 50         push eax
[000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
[000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
[000021b3] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
[00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin main()
[00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
 New slave_stack at:1038c4
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc
[00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
 // emulated HHH emulating DDD
New slave_stack at:14e2ec
[00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
 [0000219f][00103820][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000021a2][0010381c][00000000] 50         push eax
[000021a3][00103818][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000021a8][00103818][00000743] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
Input_Halts = 0
[000021ad][00103820][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000021b0][00103820][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000021b2][00103824][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
[000021b3][00103828][00000000] c3         ret
Number of Instructions Executed(10069) == 150 Pages
  

No, you are just showing that:
PPPP   EEEEE  TTTTT  EEEEE  RRRR
P   P  E        T    E      R   R
P   P  E        T    E      R   R
PPPP   EEEEE    T    EEEEE  RRRR
P      E        T    E      R R
P      E        T    E      R  R
P      EEEEE    T    EEEEE  R   R
  OOO   L       CCC    OOO   TTTTT  TTTTT
O   O  L      C   C  O   O    T      T
O   O  L      C      O   O    T      T
O   O  L      C      O   O    T      T
O   O  L      C      O   O    T      T
O   O  L      C   C  O   O    T      T
  OOO   LLLLL   CCC    OOO     T      T
L     IIIII  EEEEE   SSS
L       I    E      S   S
L       I    E      S
L       I    EEEEE   SSS
L       I    E          S
L       I    E      S   S
LLLLL IIIII  EEEEE   SSS
AND THINKS THAT IS JUST OK.