Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct

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Sujet : Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 09. Nov 2024, 20:35:06
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <6cf3fea52ee871fea09fa45cb03d6f7a8580264c@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 11/9/24 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
On 11/9/2024 12:35 PM, joes wrote:
Am Sat, 09 Nov 2024 11:46:42 -0600 schrieb olcott:
On 11/9/2024 11:27 AM, joes wrote:
Am Sat, 09 Nov 2024 11:09:02 -0600 schrieb olcott:
On 11/9/2024 10:04 AM, joes wrote:
Am Sat, 09 Nov 2024 08:45:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
On 11/9/2024 5:01 AM, joes wrote:
Am Fri, 08 Nov 2024 18:39:34 -0600 schrieb olcott:
On 11/8/2024 6:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 11/8/24 6:36 PM, olcott wrote:
On 11/8/2024 3:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 11/8/24 4:17 PM, olcott wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 11/8/24 1:08 PM, olcott wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 11/8/24 12:25 PM, olcott wrote:
>
That formal systems that only apply truth preserving
operations to expressions of their formal language that
have been stipulated to be true cannot possibly be
undecidable is proven to be over-your-head on the basis
that you have no actual reasoning as a rebuttal.
Gödel showed otherwise.
Gödel had a different f-cking basis.
Where is the difference?
True is only provable from axioms thus ~Provable(PA, G) == ~True(PA, G)
 
The metatheory proves otherwise. If G were not true, ~G would need to
be provable.
>
The meta-theory does not and never has proved otherwise.
People simply stupidly assume that true in the meta-theory
is the same as true in the theory. It is not, that it merely
a stupidly false assumptions.
 
When truth is only derived by starting with truth and applying truth
preserving operations then unprovable in PA becomes untrue in PA.
No, unless your system is less powerful than PA.
Untrue means the negation is true, but ~G is also unprovable.
It is not any less powerful than PA in the same f-cking way that ZFC
is not less powerful than naive set theory.
>
Then it is incomplete or inconsistent.
 ZFC is neither incomplete nor inconsistent.
 Stipulating that True(L,x) only means Provable(L,x)
from the axioms of L simply gets rid of incompleteness
and undecidability nothing else is changed.
 
And makes the system NECESSARILY less powerful.
It means that you can't have the full properties of the Natural Numbers.

>
>
But, as I pointed out, the way Meta-Math is derived from PA,
Meta-math <IS NOT> PA.
True in meta-math <IS NOT> True in PA.
Yes it is. If MM proves that a sentence is true in PA, that
sentence is true in PA.
Within my model: Only PA can prove what is true in PA.
>
PA can’t prove anything about itself.
>
But MM has exactly the same axioms and rules as PA, so anything
established by that set of axioms and rules in MM is established
in PA too.
There are additional axioms in MM, but the rules are built
specifically
One single level of indirect reference CHANGES EVERYTHING. PA
speaks PA. Meta-math speaks ABOUT PA.
The liar paradox is nonsense gibberish except when applied to
itself, then it becomes true.
>
What is "the liar paradox applied to itself"?
>
 *This is the Liar Paradox applied to itself*
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true.
 *This is the Liar Paradox applied to itself*
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true.
 *This is the Liar Paradox applied to itself*
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true.
 *This is the Liar Paradox applied to itself*
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true.
 *This is the Liar Paradox applied to itself*
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true.
 I told you this many times before and you didn't bother to notice.
I told you this many times before and you didn't bother to notice.
I told you this many times before and you didn't bother to notice.
I told you this many times before and you didn't bother to notice.
I told you this many times before and you didn't bother to notice.
 
Can yo please add a newline so that you comments are no buried in my
comments?
How does your newsreader mark quotes?
Instead of replying immediately after my comment, skip a line. Leave a
freaking blank line inbetween.
Does your reader not mark quotes?
Are you reading in plaintext?
>
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true
because the inner sentence is nonsense gibberish.
I think you missed some quotation marks there. The outer sentence is
true, but the inner is perfectly wellformed and syntactically
correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously is
also syntactically well formed and semantic gibberish.
"This sentence is not true" however has a welldefined meaning.
No it does f-cking not. WTF is it true about?
>
Itself?
>
 This sentence has words, is true.
This sentence is true. is infinitely recursive thus has no truth value.
 

Date Sujet#  Auteur
27 Oct 24 * The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---588olcott
27 Oct 24 `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---587Richard Damon
28 Oct 24  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---586olcott
28 Oct 24   `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---585Richard Damon
28 Oct 24    `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---584olcott
28 Oct 24     `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---583Richard Damon
28 Oct 24      `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---582olcott
29 Oct 24       `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---581Richard Damon
29 Oct 24        +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---466olcott
29 Oct 24        i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
29 Oct 24        i`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---464Mikko
29 Oct 24        i +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---270olcott
29 Oct 24        i i+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---242Andy Walker
29 Oct 24        i ii+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---9olcott
29 Oct 24        i iii+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---7joes
29 Oct 24        i iiii`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---6olcott
30 Oct 24        i iiii `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---5Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i iiii  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---4olcott
30 Oct 24        i iiii   `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i iiii    `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
31 Oct 24        i iiii     `- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i iii`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i ii`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---232Jeff Barnett
30 Oct 24        i ii +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---4olcott
30 Oct 24        i ii i`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i ii i `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
31 Oct 24        i ii i  `- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i ii `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---227Andy Walker
30 Oct 24        i ii  +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
31 Oct 24        i ii  i`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
31 Oct 24        i ii  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---224Mikko
31 Oct 24        i ii   +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3olcott
1 Nov 24        i ii   i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
1 Nov 24        i ii   i`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
31 Oct 24        i ii   `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---220Andy Walker
31 Oct 24        i ii    `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---219olcott
1 Nov 24        i ii     `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---218Richard Damon
1 Nov 24        i ii      `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---217olcott
1 Nov 24        i ii       +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---207olcott
1 Nov 24        i ii       i+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---205Mikko
1 Nov 24        i ii       ii`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---204olcott
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii +- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---202Mikko
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii  +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---187Andy Walker
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii  ii`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---183Mikko
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---15olcott
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i i+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---12Mike Terry
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---11olcott
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---10Richard Damon
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---9olcott
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii   `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---8Richard Damon
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii    `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---7olcott
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii     `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---6Richard Damon
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii      `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---5olcott
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii       +- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii       `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3joes
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii        `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i ii         `- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
3 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i i`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---167Andy Walker
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i  +- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1olcott
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---165Mikko
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i   `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---164Andy Walker
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3olcott
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    i`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
5 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3Mikko
6 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    i`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2Andy Walker
6 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    i `- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
6 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i    `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---157Alan Mackenzie
6 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---155olcott
6 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     i+* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---150Alan Mackenzie
7 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---149olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---148Alan Mackenzie
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii  `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---147olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---145Alan Mackenzie
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---144olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---140Alan Mackenzie
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---139olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---137Alan Mackenzie
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---136olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---128Richard Damon
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---127olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---126Richard Damon
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i  `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---125olcott
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i   `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---124Richard Damon
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i    `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---123olcott
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i     `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---122Richard Damon
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i      `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---121olcott
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i       +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---4Richard Damon
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i       i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---3olcott
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i       i `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2Richard Damon
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i       i  `- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i       `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---116joes
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i        `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct115olcott
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i         +- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct1Richard Damon
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i         +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct104Alan Mackenzie
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i         +* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct8joes
10 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i i         `- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis --- infallibly correct1Mikko
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i i `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---7Alan Mackenzie
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i i `- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i +- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
8 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   i `* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2joes
9 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     ii   `- Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
7 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     i`* Re: The philosophy of logic reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---4Richard Damon
7 Nov 24        i ii       ii  i     `- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Mikko
2 Nov 24        i ii       ii  +* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---12olcott
4 Nov 24        i ii       ii  `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---2olcott
2 Nov 24        i ii       i`- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
1 Nov 24        i ii       `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---9Mikko
29 Oct 24        i i+* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---16joes
30 Oct 24        i i+- Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---1Richard Damon
30 Oct 24        i i`* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---10Mikko
29 Oct 24        i `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---193olcott
29 Oct 24        `* Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a new basis ---114olcott

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