Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy

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Sujet : Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy
De : noreply (at) *nospam* example.org (joes)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 24. Feb 2025, 10:34:44
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <b81438405ef9268d7cbebfefbc09d9ae81f2b64d@i2pn2.org>
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User-Agent : Pan/0.145 (Duplicitous mercenary valetism; d7e168a git.gnome.org/pan2)
Am Sun, 23 Feb 2025 22:42:10 -0600 schrieb olcott:
On 2/23/2025 10:09 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/23/2025 10:20 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/23/2025 9:15 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/23/2025 9:04 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/23/2025 7:22 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/23/2025 8:13 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/23/2025 6:15 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/23/2025 7:10 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/23/2025 11:57 AM, dbush wrote:
On 2/23/2025 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/22/2025 8:34 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/22/2025 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:59 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/22/2025 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/22/2025 2:59 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/22/2025 3:53 PM, olcott wrote:
On 2/22/2025 2:09 PM, dbush wrote:
On 2/22/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>
01 int F(int i)
02 {
03   if (i > 10)
04     return 0;
05   else 06     return F(i+1);
07 }
08 09 int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
10 {
11   return F(0);
12 }
13 14 int main()
15 {
16   F((int)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
17   return 0;
18 }
>
So if the address of no_numbers_greater_than_10 is
greater than 10 then 0 is returned right away,
otherwise as most 10 recursive calls will be made
before the condition is matched and 0 is returned.
This doesn't change the fact that
no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly simulated by F
cannot possibly return so F(no_numbers_greater_than_10)
is correct to report non-halting, which means that
there is no natural number greater than 10.
Agreed?
>
I think that you will find more bugs when you try to
provide the line number by line number execution trace.
#1 bug F never simulates anything.
>
It is a verified fact that
F never simulates anything when i > 10.
>
Remember, you agreed that the behavior of X simulated by Y
is defined by replacing the code of Y with an unconditional
simulator and running Y(X):
>
On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
 > On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
 >> On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
 >>> The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH
 >>> cannot possibly terminate normally by reaching its
 >>> own "return" instruction.
 >>
 >> In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced with an
unconditional simulator then it can be shown that DD is
non- halting and therefore HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
 >>
 > Wow finally someone that totally gets it.
>
So the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 simulated by
F is defined by replacing the code of F with an
unconditional simulated and running
F(no_numbers_greater_than_10).
The finite string input to F proves that there are no
instructions in no_numbers_greater_than_10 that can break
the recursive simulation.
Try to show how no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly
simulated by F can possibly halt.
>
Then is ceases to be analogous to HHH(DD) because
no_numbers_greater_than_10() always terminates normally by
reaching its own "return" instruction.
>
In other words, when we actually run
no_numbers_greater_than_10() it reaches its own "return"
instruction.
That means we've now established that the direct execution of
a program (which includes all the functions it calls
UNMODIFIED) defines whether or not it halts.
Likewise, when we actually run DD() unmodified it also
reaches its own "return" instruction.
Therefore HHH(DD)==0 is wrong.
>
When DD is correctly simulated by HHH according to the
behavior that the above machine code specifies then the call
from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return and this correctly
simulated DD cannot possibly terminate  normally by reaching
its own machine address 00002155.
>
Similarly:
0000000000400534 <no_numbers_greater_than_10>:
   400534:    55                       push   %rbp 400535:   
   48 89 e5                 mov    %rsp,%rbp 400538:    b8 34
   05 40 00           mov    $0x400534,%eax 40053d:    48 89
   c7                 mov    %rax,%rdi 400540:    e8 a8 ff ff
   ff           callq  4004ed <F> 400545:   
   5d                       pop    %rbp 400546:   
   c3                       retq
>
When no_numbers_greater_than_10 is correctly simulated by F
according to the behavior that the above machine code specifies
then the call from no_numbers_greater_than_10  to
F(no_numbers_greater_than_10) cannot possibly terminate
normally by reaching its own machine address 400545
So F(no_numbers_greater_than_10)==0 is correct, and therefore
no natural number exists that is greater than 10
Agreed?
>
I Only understand Intel format assembly language.
>
It corresponds to the following C code:
>
int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
{
   return F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
}
So if DD is non halting, then by the same criteria
no_numbers_greater_than_10 is non-halting
Agreed?
>
I cannot see any way that you explained that the above invocation
does not always halt. Because of the huge bug in earlier code it
seems that you may be simply.
>
no_numbers_greater_than_10 is structured exactly the same way as
DD. What the code of the function F does isn't really relevant
because your halting criteria replaces all of it with an
unconditional simulator as the basis for a decision.  What matters
is that it returns 0.
>
I am not going to talk about your example any more.
I'll take that as your admission that you know my example proves you
wrong.
With such a major bug initially in your example I am assuming that you
don't understand it.
You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter what the code of F
is.  As you yourself said:
 
On 9/17/22 6:46 PM, olcott wrote:
 > A halt decider must predict what the behavior of its input would be
 > in the hypothetical case that it directly executed its input. The
 > means for it to do this are unspecified, thus unconstrained:
 > (a) Static analysis (b) Partial simulation (c) Wild guess
 
Don't freaking quote what I said in 2022.
Do you renounce it?

--
Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
14 Feb 25 * Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH420olcott
14 Feb 25 +* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH137Richard Damon
14 Feb 25 i`* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH136olcott
14 Feb 25 i +* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH131joes
15 Feb 25 i i`* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH130olcott
15 Feb 25 i i +- Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH1Richard Damon
15 Feb 25 i i `* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH128joes
16 Feb 25 i i  `* DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN127olcott
16 Feb 25 i i   +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
16 Feb 25 i i   +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
16 Feb 25 i i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN124joes
16 Feb 25 i i    +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN3olcott
16 Feb 25 i i    i+- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
16 Feb 25 i i    i`- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Fred. Zwarts
20 Feb 25 i i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN120olcott
20 Feb 25 i i     +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN31Mikko
20 Feb 25 i i     i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN30olcott
21 Feb 25 i i     i +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
21 Feb 25 i i     i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN28Mikko
21 Feb 25 i i     i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN27olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i   +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
22 Feb 25 i i     i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN25Mikko
22 Feb 25 i i     i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN24olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i     +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN3joes
22 Feb 25 i i     i     i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN2olcott
23 Feb 25 i i     i     i `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
23 Feb 25 i i     i     +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
23 Feb 25 i i     i     `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN19Mikko
23 Feb 25 i i     i      `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN18olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i       +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
24 Feb 25 i i     i       `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN16Mikko
25 Feb 25 i i     i        `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN15olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i         +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
25 Feb 25 i i     i         +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i         +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN3joes
25 Feb 25 i i     i         i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN2olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i         i `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1joes
25 Feb 25 i i     i         +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Fred. Zwarts
25 Feb 25 i i     i         `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN8Mikko
25 Feb 25 i i     i          `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN7olcott
26 Feb 25 i i     i           +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN5Richard Damon
26 Feb 25 i i     i           i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN4olcott
26 Feb 25 i i     i           i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN3Richard Damon
26 Feb 25 i i     i           i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN2olcott
26 Feb 25 i i     i           i   `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
26 Feb 25 i i     i           `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Mikko
20 Feb 25 i i     +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN87joes
22 Feb 25 i i     i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN86olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN84joes
22 Feb 25 i i     i i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy83olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy67dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy66olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy65dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy64olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy63dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy62olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i     `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy61dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i      `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy60olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i       `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy59dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i        `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy58olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i         `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy57dbush
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i          `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy56olcott
22 Feb 25 i i     i i i           `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy55dbush
23 Feb 25 i i     i i i            `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy54olcott
23 Feb 25 i i     i i i             +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy52dbush
23 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy51olcott
23 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy50dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy49olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy47dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy46olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy45dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy44olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy43dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy42olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i     `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy41dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i      `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy40olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy37dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy36olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy35dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy34olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy33dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i    +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy2dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i    i`- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy30olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i     `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy29dbush
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i      `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy28olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i       +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy2joes
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i       i`- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1olcott
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i       `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy25dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i        `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy24olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy22dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy21olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy20dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i  `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy19olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i   `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy18dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i    `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy17olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i     `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy16dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      +* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy13olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      i+* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy11dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      ii`* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy10olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      ii `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy9dbush
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      i`- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1joes
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         i      `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy2olcott
25 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       i         `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1joes
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   i       `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy2joes
24 Feb 25 i i     i i i             i   `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1dbush
23 Feb 25 i i     i i i             `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1Richard Damon
22 Feb 25 i i     i i +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1joes
23 Feb 25 i i     i i +- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy1Richard Damon
23 Feb 25 i i     i i `* Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --- Saving Democracy13Mikko
22 Feb 25 i i     i `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
20 Feb 25 i i     `- Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN1Richard Damon
14 Feb 25 i `* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH4Richard Damon
14 Feb 25 `* Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH282Mikko

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