Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)

Liste des GroupesRevenir à c theory 
Sujet : Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 05. Apr 2025, 13:37:58
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <4d166fb4ec0aa24a603f97938bdfbe434c1bd9da@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 4/5/25 2:21 AM, olcott wrote:
On 4/3/2025 10:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 4/3/25 10:06 PM, olcott wrote:
On 4/3/2025 8:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 4/3/25 9:27 PM, olcott wrote:
void DDD()
{
    HHH(DDD);
    return;
}
>
Do you really think that anyone knowing the C
programming language is too stupid to see that
DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly return?
>
But if HHH doesn't do a complete emulation, it doesn't show that its input is non-halting,
>
In other words you're convinced that a C
program cannot see what every C programmer sees?
>
>
The problem is that you are looking at the wrong thing, because you have beleived your own lies. It isn't what people "see", it is what is the answer to the actual question.
>
 That you disagree with truisms makes you look quite foolish.
 *Simulating termination analyzer Principle*
It is always correct for any simulating termination
analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input that
would otherwise prevent its own termination. The
only rebuttal to this is rejecting the notion that
deciders must always halt.
 
No, but HHH needs to be CORRECT about such determination.
Since the definition of the thing to be decide on is a PROGRAM, (or an algorith), specificially in the proof you are talking about as implemented in a Turing Machine, this requires that the input *FULL* specifies the algorithm used, and thus your above "input" isn't sufficient, as it doesn't describe in full detail and inplementation how HHH gets its answer, we need to include that as part of the code it is deciding on. (Else your problem is a category error)
When we do this, we CAN change the instance of HHH that is deciding to not abort (but it still is emulating the DDD that calls an instance of HHH that does abort, since that is what we started with) and see that it WILL reach the final step (as shown by your HHH1).
THis PROVES that HHH was not correct in determining that its abort was valid, and thus it violated your logic.
Note, there is no algorithmic step like "get the right answer". you need to implement the process to get that answer,
So, all you have done is establish that no such decider can exist, and that you "logic" is based on LIES.
Sorry, that is just the truth.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
4 Apr 25 * DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)459olcott
4 Apr 25 +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)6Richard Damon
4 Apr 25 i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5olcott
4 Apr 25 i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
5 Apr 25 i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
5 Apr 25 i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
4 Apr 25 i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Mikko
4 Apr 25 +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Mikko
5 Apr 25 +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)446olcott
5 Apr 25 i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)445Mikko
5 Apr 25 i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)444olcott
6 Apr 25 i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)443Mikko
6 Apr 25 i   `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)442olcott
6 Apr 25 i    +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Richard Damon
7 Apr 25 i    i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
7 Apr 25 i    i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
8 Apr 25 i    i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
8 Apr 25 i    i   `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
7 Apr 25 i    `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)436Mikko
8 Apr 25 i     `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)435olcott
8 Apr 25 i      +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)428Fred. Zwarts
8 Apr 25 i      i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)427olcott
8 Apr 25 i      i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)425Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)424olcott
9 Apr 25 i      i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)422Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i i+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i ii+- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i ii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i ii  `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
9 Apr 25 i      i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)414olcott
9 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)30dbush
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)29olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)15dbush
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)14olcott
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)10dbush
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)9olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7dbush
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)6olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i   `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)12Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i  `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)11olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i   +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)8dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)7olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Mikko
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i  `* Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i   +- Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i   i   `- Re: DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i   `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)2Fred. Zwarts
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i    `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
10 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)370Mikko
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)369olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)366Mikko
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i i+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)362Richard Heathfield
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i ii+* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)357olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii+- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)355joes
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Richard Heathfield
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Heathfield
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)349olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)343dbush
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots342olcott
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots18dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots17olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots15dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots14olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots12dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots11olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots5dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots4olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
22 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1joes
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots4joes
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots3olcott
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1dbush
15 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots312Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots311olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots7dbush
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots6olcott
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i +- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots1Richard Damon
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots302joes
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem) --- mindless robots11joes
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Fred. Zwarts
14 Apr 25 i      i i i i iii  `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
12 Apr 25 i      i i i i ii`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Mikko
13 Apr 25 i      i i i i i`* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)3olcott
11 Apr 25 i      i i i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Fred. Zwarts
10 Apr 25 i      i i i +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)4Fred. Zwarts
13 Apr 25 i      i i i `* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)9joes
10 Apr 25 i      i i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
9 Apr 25 i      i `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
8 Apr 25 i      +* Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)5Mikko
8 Apr 25 i      `- Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt (Halting Problem)1Richard Damon
5 Apr 25 `* Proving the: Simulating termination analyzer Principle5olcott

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