Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met

On 5/12/2025 6:24 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 6:41 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 5:30 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 4:54 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 4:39 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 5:12 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 3:29 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 4:17 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 2:53 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 2:27 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/12/2025 1:20 PM, dbush wrote:

On 5/12/2025 2:17 PM, olcott wrote:

Introduction to the Theory of Computation 3rd Edition
by Michael Sipser (Author)
4.4 out of 5 stars    568 rating
>
https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Computation- Michael- Sipser/ dp/113318779X
>
int DD()
  {
   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
   if (Halt_Status)
     HERE: goto HERE;
   return Halt_Status;
  }
>
DD correctly simulated by any pure simulator
named HHH cannot possibly terminate thus proving
that this criteria has been met:
>
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its
     input D until H correctly determines that its simulated D
     would never stop running unless aborted then
>
     H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
     specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
  </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>

>
Which is not what you thought he agreed to:
>
>
On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I exchanged emails with him about this. He does not agree with anything
 > substantive that PO has written. I won't quote him, as I don't have
 > permission, but he was, let's say... forthright, in his reply to me.
>

>
*Ben already acknowledged that the requirements have been met*
>
On 10/17/2022 10:23 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > ...D(D) would not halt unless H stops the simulation.
 > H /can/ correctly determine this silly criterion (in this one case)...
>
>

>
Which is not what Sipser agreed to, as stated above.
>
He agreed, as all others would, that H must determine if UTM(D) halts.

>
That is not what Ben's words mean.
>
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H
 > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
 > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
>
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     H correctly determines that its simulated D
     would never stop running unless aborted...
>
*its simulated D*
>

>
Which Sipser (and everyone else) takes to mean UTM(D),

>
*its simulated D* cannot be *correctly* understood
to mean a D simulated by anything else other than
a hypothetical H that never aborts.

>
False.  It cannot be *correctly* understood to be anything else but the algorithm D simulated completely by a UTM,

>
An H that never aborts <is> a UTM.

>
In which case you don't have algorithm D.  You instead have algorithm Dn.
>

>
*its simulated D would never stop running unless aborted*
can only mean one thing.

>
And what it means is changing the input.
>
Changing the input is not allowed.

>
So professor Sisper was wrong?
>

 He didn't agree to what you think he did:
 On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I exchanged emails with him about this. He does not agree with anything
 > substantive that PO has written. I won't quote him, as I don't have
 > permission, but he was, let's say... forthright, in his reply to me.
  On 8/23/2024 5:07 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I suspect he was tricked because PO used H and D as the names without
 > making it clear that D was constructed from H in the usual way (Sipser
 > uses H and D in at least one of his proofs).  Of course, he is clued in
 > enough know that, if D is indeed constructed from H like that, the
 > "minor remark" becomes true by being a hypothetical: if the moon is made
 > of cheese, the Martians can look forward to a fine fondue.  But,
 > personally, I think the professor is more straight talking than that,
 > and he simply took as a method that can work for some inputs.  That's
 > the only way is could be seen as a "minor remark" with being accused of
 > being disingenuous.
 On 8/23/2024 9:10 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
 > So that PO will have no cause to quote me as supporting his case:  what
 > Sipser understood he was agreeing to was NOT what PO interprets it as
 > meaning.  Sipser would not agree that the conclusion applies in PO's
 > HHH(DDD) scenario, where DDD halts.
 

This can only have one meaning:
*its simulated D would never stop running unless aborted*
The other reviewers simply did not bother to pay 100%
complete attention to the exact meaning of those words.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer