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On 5/31/2025 5:27 PM, Mike Terry wrote:???On 31/05/2025 20:26, dbush wrote:We cannot do a separate side-by-side execution trace ofOn 5/31/2025 2:38 PM, olcott wrote:>On 5/31/2025 11:59 AM, dbush wrote:>On 5/31/2025 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:>On 5/31/2025 7:39 AM, dbush wrote:>On 5/31/2025 2:41 AM, olcott wrote:>On 5/30/2025 8:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:>On 5/30/25 11:41 AM, olcott wrote:>On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:>On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said:>
>On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:>>>
🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
>
In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing machines),
simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can approximate one
another.
To the best of my knowledge a simulated input
always has the exact same behavior as the directly
executed input unless this simulated input calls
its own simulator.
The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real
behaviour.
That is the same as saying a function with infinite
recursion must have the same behavior as a function
without infinite recursion.
Nope. Where does it say that?
>
_DDD()
[00002192] 55 push ebp
[00002193] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6892210000 push 00002192
[0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 // call HHH
[0000219f] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021a2] 5d pop ebp
[000021a3] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>
DDD emulated by HHH must be aborted. // otherwise infinite recursion
DDD emulated by HHH1 need not be aborted.
>
>
And the simulation performed by each of these is the same up to the point that HHH aborts, as you have admitted on the record:
>
No moron they are not.
HHH performs one whole recursive emulation of DDD
than HHH1 ever does BEFORE HHH EVER ABORTS.
>
Nope, if that was true you would have previously identified the divergence but failed to do so.
>
The code has proved that it is true for three years.
False.
>
That you are unable to see that the side by side code traces are exactly the same up the the point that HHH aborts is not a rebuttal.
Right. I've presented such comparisons for PO on multiple occasions, but it's like he looks at the post, and simply can't see what it's saying - like there's a big hole in the post or something. It brings to mind the Oliver Sacks book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".
>
Mike.
>
>
HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) because the DDD simulated by HHH1
calls HHH(DDD) as a part of this same simulation.
From the trace shown below we can see that HHH simulates??? SInce HHH1 simulates the input to the very end, how can HHH simulate farther and not get there?
DDD one whole execution trace more than HHH1 does.
*It is only after this whole extra recursive emulation*
*divergence that HHH aborts its emulated DDD*
_DDD()
[00002183] 55 push ebp
[00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
[00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04
[00002193] 5d pop ebp
[00002194] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
_main()
[000021a3] 55 push ebp
[000021a4] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000021a6] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
[000021b0] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021b3] 33c0 xor eax,eax
[000021b5] 5d pop ebp
[000021b6] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========== =============
[000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55 push ebp
[000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
New slave_stack at:1038d1
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9
[00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55 push ebp
[00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:14e2f9
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e301
[00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55 push ebp
[00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:198d21
[00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55 push ebp
[00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
[00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404 add esp,+04
[00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d pop ebp
[00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3 ret
[000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
[000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d pop ebp
[000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3 ret
Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages
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