Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 08:39:07 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 22:26:56 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 08:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:
>

It doesn't need to , it can just spawn off a script or some other
program which does that which is entirely inline with the unix
philosophy.

>
Which is where the trouble starts.

 
The trouble is with any support scripts, not with init. I've written a
number of init scripts with a lot of surrounding logic.

>
I’m sure you have. Which means you are familiar with the wholesale copying
and pasting of boilerplate from one script to the next. “What does this
bit do?” “Don’t bother thinking too hard, just stick it in, just in
case.”

Nobody but you can be familiar with what you are doing when being forced
to write code.

God knows how I'd do that with systemd ...

>
Figure out what the directives do (they’re all documented), and which
settings will achieve the result you want. Most of the time, your service
file will be very simple and very short, since all the common cases are
already covered.
>
“Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible.”
    -- Alan Kay

According to an automated count (mostly perl -ne 'print $_, "\n" for
/\w+=/g') the current version of systemd supports about 320
directives and people still combine that with start scripts, be this
because their use case still isn't supported or because they didn't want
to be bothered with learning about all the details of this huge, rusted
barbed wire obstacle just for solving a simple problem.

The quote would thus more appropriate be:

Make simple things hideously complicated and complicated things at all
impossible.

-- Lennart Poettering about "How to create problems for other people for one's
   own benefit."

He was talking about GUI design, but the same applies to systemd. And to a
lot of other popular *nix software, while we’re at it.
>

Poettering understands that services don’t just to be started, they al
so need to be managed and shut down cleanly.

 
Poettering created the wrong solution to the wrong problem.

>
Lots of sysadmins, and distro maintainers, and developers of service apps,
disagree.

Due to human nature, lots of people will always disagree with anything.