Re: The Return of Michael Monkey

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:59:44 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:43:32 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 17:08:03 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:43:16 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:55:06 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>

On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:55:28 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>

On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 14:29:07 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain aka
"HarryLime" wrote:

On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 18:01:42 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 17:56:41 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain aka
"HarryLime" wrote:

On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 17:42:27 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

MummyChunk wrote:

>

Again, why do you lie and misrepresent so much, monkey boy Michael

Pendragon?
>
Just curious.

>
The problem with you is that you lie and misrepresent so much, Michael
Pendragon.

>
That simply isn't true

>
Of course I don't expect you to admit it, Pendragon.

>
You know the rules, Donkey: PPSFU (Post Proof or Shut the Fuck Up).
>
Any so-called "misrepresentation" you can find was based on one of
*your* posts.

>
Oh, so HarryLiar wants proof? Let's look at his next paragraph:
>

I only know you from what you post here, Donkey.  If you write a poem
based on a "romantic interlude" where you grope a woman you barely knew,
then I'm going to say that you sexually assaulted her (because according
to your poem, that's exactly what you did).

>
Harry Liar reposted an "edited" poem Will had written over 40 years ago
about a dream he'd had. You reposted part of the poem, snipping the line
about it being a dream, to falsely accuse him of sexual assault.
>
Here's the thread, so readers can see for themselves:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=15788&group=rec.arts.poems#15788

>
Thanks, George.
>
I see that Harry Lime aka Michael Pendragon is bringing his attacks on
me here, spreading his lies and misrepresentations.
>
Never mind the Harry Lime bullocks, here's the original unedited version
so the readers can decide for
themselves:
>
***
>

I Met A Girl
>
I met a girl
she came from California.
It was in a dream
we knew each other instantly.
She was a little freckled girl
from out of
my high school past.
>
And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey.
I've forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice.
>
We talked
a really detached situation.
She said years ago
I was so shy
she thought I was gay.
At this point I kissed her
and put my finger to her hole.
>
And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey.
I have forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice.
>
I don't know why it was
that I would think of her.
I made a couple of puns
about her name that made me blush.
But her softness in tone
made me feel all right.
>
All I want to do
is get in contact.
>
-Will Dockery / May 8 1982

>
***
>
Again, this poem was written in 1982, during my time in the Atlanta
Georgia New Wave punk rock scene, while also influenced by the earlier
Beatnik poets
I was reading at the time, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and
Charles Bukowski among others.
>
Both styles employed a sort of crude swagger in the tone and content
which I also used in many of my poems.
>
Again, all apologies to those offended.
>
HTH and HAND, again.
>
😏

>
And again, the poem is your attempt to recast what can only be seen as
an act of  sexual assault (at least insofar as it's depicted in your
poem) as a "romantic interlude" from you past.

>
No, that's your attempt to misrepresent the meaning of my poem.
>
HTH and HAND.

>
The meaning of your poem (or any given poem) is derived from the words
that comprise it.
>
The meaning of your poem is quite clear.  It's just not the meaning
you'd intended it to have.
>
--

>
That's your opinion, Harry.
>
Others, including myself and George Dance, don't agree.

Let's take it line by line, Donkey:
"I met a girl
she came from California."
This is not a sentence, Donkey.  It is two short sentences that you've
pasted together.
The implication here is that you met her for the first time -- since
you're telling us that she came from California, and you've never been
beyond the states bordering Georgia.
The second line can be read two ways: 1) she had been visiting
California, or 2) she hailed from California.
When you take the information from both lines together (even without
trying to force them into a single sentence), it sounds like you just
met a girl who hails from California.
"It was in a dream
we knew each other instantly."
Again, this is not a sentence, but two short sentences that have been
pasted together.
It is a common phenomenon in dreams to "recognize" someone you've never
seen before.  This is because the person symbolizes someone from your
life (or is a combination of several people from your life).
However, the only reason to say that you "knew each other instantly"
would be if knowing each other would not have been expected.
For instance, if you said that you General Zid at a bar, one would
automatically assume that you "knew one another instantly."
Generally speaking, when you know someone in real life, it's expected
that you would recognize them on sight.
Since you felt it necessary to tell us that you "knew each other on
sight," we (as readers) have to conclude that the girl was someone you
just met, who had spent her life in California.
"She was a little freckled girl
from out of
my high school past."
Usually, when one describes someone as "a little freckled girl," they're
talking about an adolescent.  Both "little" and "girl" imply that she
was a child, and "freckled" (which implies that she didn't wear
foundation to cover her freckles) supports this reading (as girls don't
start wearing makeup until they're in their teens).
You then specify that she was from your "high school past."  As worded,
she is literally stepping out of the past into the present (which
characters in dreams have been known to do).
At this point, the readers must revise their understanding of the poem.
The girl was someone you had known in high school, not someone you just
met; and is somewhere between the ages of 14 - 17.
Of course you've now introduced what appears to be conflicting
information: if the girl came *from* out of your past, she could not
have also just come from California.  Since the purpose of language is
to convey information to others, confusing writing is bad writing.
The reader is left to attempt to make the conflicting parts of the
narrative correspond.  The best answer (based on what you wrote -- not
on what actually happened in your life) is that you dreamed about a girl
you knew in high school; she looked exactly as she did when she was in
high school (age 14 - 17), but in your dream she had just returned from
a trip to California.
IOW: You're dreaming about meeting up with a minor in a punk rock bar.
"And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey."
This is a poorly constructed sentence, as the opening "And" implies that
it is a continuation of single thought ("She smiled AND looked up at
me...").
The fact that she was looking up at you, reinforces your presentation of
her as "a little...girl."  The fact that she "talked real spacey"
implies that she was stoned out of her mind.
At this point, your poem may be interpreted as follows:
You dreamt about meeting "a little freckled girl" who looked like she'd
just stepped out of your high school memories of her (i.e., she looked
17 or younger) in a bar.  She had just returned from California and
talked like someone who was stoned.
This sounds like you've been reading one too many Chuck Lysaght poems
about adults getting it on with babysitters.
"I've forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice."
This sentence (yes, it's actually a sentence!) tells us two things:
1) You didn't know her name (since she had to tell it to you), and
2) that you didn't care enough about as a person to bother remembering
it after she told it to you.
This makes it clear that you didn't know her well enough in high school
to know what her name was.  She appears to have been a girl from another
grade, who you passed in the halls, but never spoke to (this reading is
further supported by the content of the following stanza).
It also sheds light on the nature of the alleged "romantic interlude"
which is graphically depicted in the following stanza as well.
"We talked
a really detached situation."
This is not a sentence.  It is the combination of a really short (2
word) sentence and a longer sentence fragment.  It also makes no sense. I'm guessing that you'd meant to write something along the lines of "We
attempted to make conversation, but couldn't seem to make a connection."
This, too, sheds light on the "romantic interlude" that follows.
"She said years ago
I was so shy
she thought I was gay."
This is a poorly constructed sentence.  The first line implies that
she'd made the statement years ago, although one assumes that she was
speaking it that night.
Her saying that you were "so shy" that "she thought
The relevance of this statement becomes important when we read the
sentence which follows it:
"At this point I kissed her
and put my finger to her hole."
"At this point" signifies "right at that moment"/"immediately" and
strongly implies "in reaction to."  IOW: You felt embarrassed by her
words (your masculinity had been diminished by them), and wanted to
prove your manliness to her by grabbing ahold of her, planting a kiss on
her lips, and groping her.
The phrase "put my finger to her hole" implies direct contact (since you
were touching her actual "hole").  This means that you either stuck you
hand up her skirt, or down her jeans (depending on which she was
wearing).  That's extremely invasive -- especially when this is a woman
you barely know, and had been struggling to make conversation with.
Of course you know that the word "hole" is offensive in itself.  It is a
misogynistic term that objectifies as woman as nothing more than a
receptacle for a man's sperm.
It also paints a genuinely disturbing picture of your narrative:
You had a dream in which you met "a little freckled girl" who you used
to see (but never spoke to) at your high school.  She'd recently been
away (in California), but still looked like she was 17 or under.  She
seemed to be stoned out of her mind (an easy target) so you started
hitting on her.  When she told you that she had always thought that you
were gay, you decided to prove your heterosexuality to her by forcing a
kiss on her, shoving your hand down her pants and groping her crotch.
Seriously, Donkey, that's so disturbingly wrong on so many levels.
"And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey.
I have forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice."
This is just a repeat of the second stanza.  The only purpose it serves
is to remind the readers that the girl was stoned (incapable of fending
off your physical advances) and that you couldn't have cared less about
her as a person -- she was only a nameless "hole" good for satisfying
your needs at that moment.
"I don't know why it was
that I would think of her."
This is a poorly constructed sentence.  "it was" is grammatically
incorrect.  "I don't know why I thought of her" is a much clearer way of
expressing the same thought.
The sentence feels more like filler than anything else, although it
hints that she wasn't someone you had a high school crush on, or
anything.  This is in keeping with the idea that she was nothing to you
other than a "hole" to serve your lust (and prove your manhood) at that
time.
"I made a couple of puns
about her name that made me blush."
Mulva..? Delores..?
How could you make a pun about her name when you couldn't remember it?
Why would a pun make you blush?  Traditionally it would be the woman who
would blush over a risque pun.
"But her softness in tone
made me feel all right.
As with the opening "And" (see above), opening a sentence with "But"
implies that it is the continuation of a single thought.
This sentence throws some light on the pun incident that precedes it:
After you groped the stoned little girl's vagina, you realized that you
might have overstepped your bounds (to put it mildly), so you made a
couple of awkward sexual puns about her name in an attempt to lighten
the situation with humor.  Fortunately she was so out of it that she
smiled at your puns and appeared to be compliant.
"All I want to do
is get in contact."
This is a poorly constructed sentence, but it gets its point across:
Your dream gave you a hard on and now you want to have sex with her.
So we now have a complete interpretation of your poem:
You had a dream in which you met "a little freckled girl" who you used
to see (but never spoke to) at your high school.  She'd recently been
away (in California), but still looked like she was 17 or under.  She
seemed to be stoned out of her mind (an easy target) so you started
hitting on her.  When she told you that she had always thought that you
were gay, you decided to prove your heterosexuality to her by forcing a
kiss on her, shoving your hand down her pants and groping her crotch.
You realized that you might have been a little too familiar with her,
and made a couple of puns in an attempt to lighten the situation, but
the girl was still out of it and seemed okay with your manhandling of
her.  You woke up with a woody, and wish you knew how to get in touch
with her to make your dream come true.
As you can see, I have analyzed each line of your poem, and explained
how each one supports this interpretation.
If you are able to show how *the words of each line* clearly mean
something else, please feel free to do so.
However, based on the above examination, I don't see how one could
justifiably interpret your poem any other way.
-- Michael Pendragon
“Yes, the poem itself is based on a dress I had 43 years ago.
May 8th 1982 to be exact.” – Will "I'm a Lumberjack" Donkey
--