Re: The Return of Michael Monkey

On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 16:36:47 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 14:50:07 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>

On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 13:07:49 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>

On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:48:09 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 7:30:46 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>

On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 17:30:33 +0000, Michael Monkey Peakbrain akd
"HarryLime" wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 1:56:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 18:58:18 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MMP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 2:20:10 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 15:29:37 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MMP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:07:47 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:47:06 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MMP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:

>

Not only are Team Donkey's members not my enemies, but I see no reason
why anyone should need allies to engage with them.

>
LOL! Remember what happened the last time you your act solo
rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s. You tried there to pose as the genius
with the encyplopedic knowledge of 1950s music, but (even though your
knowledge of 1950s music is more extensive than your knowledge of
poetry)
you failed miserably, got your ass kicked and had to come here to start
over.
Even if you had the brains of a chimp, you'd be smart enough to realize
you
needed a team this time.

>
I left the 50s group for numerous reasons, the most significant being
that it had become a thoroughly unproductive time sap.  I had learned
all that I could from it, and the arguments were becoming repetitive
rehashes that served no valuable purpose for me to pursue.  Since
leaving, I have completed and published numerous books (including a 50s
music book), and a monthly poetry magazine.

>
You made the right decision; it is better to put your efforts into
something more permanent. Please do the same for aapc.
>

And, if I felt that I needed a team to participate in this group, I
would have sided with PJR, Horatio, and Gwyneth, who were infinitely
more knowledgeable,  and better educated than those of "Team Dunce"
(which at the time consisted of you and your Donkey).

>
Like Corey, you did; but PJR, the elitist snob that he was, wanted
nothing to do with either of you; so it was either leave or join the
opposition. So you joined the opposition, and helped get rid of him,
then tried to replace him.
Unfortunately, you misunderstood and thought the opposition wanted to
run aapc themselves. I can't speak for the other two, but I don't want
anyone to run it.
>

You nailed it again, George.

>
Thanks. PJR's team was quite happy to take in both Corey and Michael as
allies, but PJR wanted nothing to do with them.

>
You're delusional, George.
>
PJR never had a team (unless one counts his friends from his
alt.net.kooks --but that's a different matter which I'll discuss below).

>
Nonsense, MMP. At that time he still had two alt.koos - Aratzio, who
finally moved on, and Cujo de Sockpupput, who moved with you to your
facebook group - but he also had the "Shit People" - Gamble, Houstman,
sherman, and Evans - and the three women they recruited onto aapc:
Karla, Gwyneth, and Cythera. (Out of deference to your tender
sensibilities, I'm using their chosen identifiers rather than my own.)

Since you were claiming that "PJR's team was quite happy to take in both
Corey and (myself)," I'm only listing members of PJR's alleged "team" at
that time.
The other "members" you list were all long gone before my arrival.  IIRC
there was a Bill(?) Evans who posted briefly during my first or second
year here, but he was friendly to both you and your Donkey.

PJR considered himself to be one of "the regulars."  The regulars were
actual poets that Will Donkey had not yet driven away.  They were not a
tean, and he was not their leader.

>
Some of his "regulars" were actual poets (like all the ones I've given
above) - some of them were
They weren't his flunkies, in the way Jim and NG were your flunkies; but
they were his echo chamber and his back-up flamers. It isn't necessary
that a team be composed only of flunkies. It's probably true that they
would have preferred to play poet and let PJR protect them from their

You've left off mid-sentence again, George.  You're starting to remind
me of former President Biden during his recent debates.
I really don't care how you differentiate between "flunkies" and
"echo-chamber"/"back-up flamers."  I'm aware that you've compiled an
ongoing lexicon of petty names and descriptions for everyone who's ever
posted here (your Donkey excepted, of course), but these are of no
interest to anyone but yourself.
PJR didn't have a "Team."  I do not have a "Team."
The only time I was a member of a "Team," is when you convinced me that
PJR was a "thug" who trolled the group with the intent of shutting it
down.  When I discovered how things really were, I turned in my "Team
Dunce" membership card.

PJR coined the term "Team Dunce" to signify you and Will - who he
considered to be illiterate trolls.

>
He also put Chuck Lysaght and Tom Bishop on that list, before their
deaths; and various other people over the years. But it's ridiculous; we
never never acted as a team in any way. Will, for instance, doesn't do
back-up flaming; he only responds to attacks on his own threads.

No true, George.
Will has been backing you "Well put, George!" in this very thread --
which he did not start.
As to Mssrs. Lysaght and Bishop, they were before my time.  However, I'm
sure that you've tricked many people into joining "Team Dunce" over the
years.
After all, you cordially greet all of the new members who come here --
whereas PJR did not.  And since PJR (at least when I was here) usually
came around simply to flame all of the "Team Dunce" members (and people
like Corey who didn't shun them), it was easy to believe that he, and
not your Donkey, was the troll.

The
only person I know whom I can remember doing back-up flaming for me is
you; othwerwise I've been on my own here. "Team Dunce" was just PJR's
"enemies list" and nothing else.

Both Will and his sock (Stinky George) have backed you on innumerable
threads.

The "kook" site was created to expose Usenet kooks in a humorous manner.
 "Wranglers" would engage in discussions with people in various Usenet
groups, searching for racists and assorted nutjobs whose buttons were
easily pressed.  They would goad these "kooks" into having a "meltdown"
online, then cross-post their meltdown to alt.kooks.  The other members
would then join in, creating further meltdowns.  They would also give
out various "awards" to the various "kooks."

>
I'm aware of that, and I've written about the same thing; it's in their
archives. By the time I arrived, though, members of the group were
priaarily doing the same thing to non-kooss (like the lawyer who later
took them to court and ended the group as a significant player).
>
What PJR did, when he got control of the group as FNVW, was bring them
into RAP and aapc, and use them against anyone he considered an enemy -
his "enemies list" as I said.

That's ridiculous, George.
PJR came to AAPC and RAP because he is a poet.  He found some kooks here
(notably you and your Donkey -- and later, myself, when I was stupid
enough to believe you), and proceeded to make you his "chew toys."

Since you and Will were considered to be "kooks," PJR cross-posted your
"meltdowns" to alt.kooks, which brought some of his fellow members (like
Cujo and Aratzio) here.

>
Maybe he did consider everyone he used alt.kooks against to be a "kook,"
but that includes a lot of people who obviously weren't. Either he was
the delusional one, or he was misusing the group.

AFAICS, his choices were correct.
He attacked people who weren't kooks, but that doesn't mean that he was
awarding tinfoil caps.
You are, and I say this as respectfully and non-combatively as possible,
most definitely a kook.  You think that you're a great poet, get
butt-hurt if someone doesn't heap unqualified praises on your work,
believe that everyone else is involved in some vast conspiracy against
you, and retaliate by calling everyone by childish names.
I'm sure that PJR had a lot of fun hearing you whine about how various
"Teams" were persecuting you and your Donkey over the years.
Hell, you even came out in support of MENSA in order to back up a total
nutjob like the late, unlamented Pickles.

So he decided to play
elitist snob. Of course, he didn't reject them because they weren't
"good" or "amsart" enough to be on his team - if he only wanted good
writers and smart thinkers, he wouldn't have had nonentities like Cujo
de Sockpuppet on it.

>
Whether PJR would have been willing to take Corey and I as allies is a
moot point, as only PJR would know whether it was true.

>
All one has to do is read his posts to and about both of you; he
considered the two of you as equally illiterate and kooky. That's how he
treated anyone who wasn't an ally. Most of the people he treated that
way left - he "drove them away" as Will puts it. Will, of course, never
left, which is why he attracted more and more of their heat.

You've got things backwards there, George.
When Will first came to AAPC (approx. 25 years ago), Google Groups had
just picked up Usenet Groups -- changing their basic dynamic: Usenet
Groups had originally been limited to professional writers, historians,
experts, etc., who subscribed to Newsreaders.  Google Groups made these
groups available to the rabble.
Invariably, each group attracted its share of narcissistic personality
types who felt that they were experts on that particular group's topic,
and proceeded to dominate the group by making incessant posts wherein
they exhibited their amazing knowledge of the same.
Initially, the professionals tolerated the riff-raff, choosing to ignore
them, rather than to get caught up in flame wars (hence the well known
"Don't Feed the Trolls" policy).  This worked for many of the trolls,
however, stubborn troll types like your Donkey only doubled down on
their efforts to dominate the group.
Eventually, the Donkeys won out.  A Donkey will always win out, because
a Donkey will only keep increasing its jackassery until everyone else
has given up and left.
In the case of your particular Donkey; he was an illiterate buffoon who
attempted to hijack every thread, and to cram his incompetent "poetry"
down everyone else's throats.  Granted, he didn't come here to
intentionally piss people off -- but his utter lack of netiquette
achieved the same end.
PJR was the last of the first wave of members who joined the Usenet
group once the Internet opened it up.  He had associated with the
original experts, and with the second generation poets who joined at the
same time as himself.  When Will had driven everyone away, PJR took to
dropping by sporadically to 1) smack Will around, and 2) to try to take
the group back for the regulars.

He did attempt to steer me away from "Team Dunce," wondering aloud how I
would feel when I realized that my "teammates" were illiterate buffoons.
 Unfortunately, I mistook PJR's behavior as abusive, whereas he was he
was actually retaliating against the group trolls.

>
Of course he was deliberately abusive to you: he called you names,
flamed your poetry, and even called you an illiterate buffoon when it
suited him. Hw sis nor xonaiswe you (or Corey) to be a poet, and he did
not want you as an ally. Deal with it.

Yes, he was deliberately abusive to me.  I saw him as a troll, believed
your stories about alt.kooks being a pack of Usenet "thugs," and
attacked him.
To say that he didn't want me as an ally (and I'm sure that he didn't)
is beside the point.  PJR never had a "Team" and therefore wasn't
interested in recruiting teammates.
I like to think that PJR came to be somewhat fond of me over the as, as
I have come to be so regarding him.  However, if such is not the case,
so be it.

I have since offered a public apology to PJR.

>
And his reply was? __________________________

IDK.  Probably something along the lines of "I still won't go out with
you."

He wanted meat puppets, yes men who'd be willing to
stay in subordinate role, not independent thinkers.

>
Again, a moot point, as only PJR would know what PJR wanted.

>
It's stupid to say you can't judge a person's thoughts by what they do.
You, for instance, inferred from his flaming of Will and me that he was
giving you friendly advice (which is silly, as he was in no way your
friend). Judging a person's thoughts by their actions is in fact more
reliable than judging them by what they tell you about them.

WTF are you spewing, George?
I said that *you* are the one who had misinformed me about PJR; and that
it is impossible for either of us to know what PJR thought.
As to whether PJR was my friend, that's a matter of subjectivity.
I like to think of us as friendly adversaries in a series of ongoing
debates.  If PJR thinks differently, that's his subjective opinion.
PJR's opinion won't change mine (based on how I felt about him), anymore
than my opinion will change his (based on his feelings toward me).
Online relationships can be complicated, and multi-faceted, George.  Not
everything is good/bad, black/white, them/us, George Dance/The World as
you purport.

I can, however, state with certainty that he did not want anyone to be
defending, supporting, and further enabling the trolls -- which is what
I had unwittingly done.

>
Of course a team of trolls, like he successfully aseembled and you
copied with your Team Monkey, don't want rival teams. Their preferred
M.O. is to attack one person at a time.

There were no such "Teams," George.
What you mistakenly call "Team Monkey" came about primarily as the
result of three separated, but interrelated, events that occurred at
about the same time:
1) Will conned Jim out of $50, effectively polarizing the group, 2) I
began to see the real Will come forward -- both through his various
autobiographical posts (primarily on your Wiki) and through his
interactions with NancyGene, ME, Usenet Editor, and others, and 3)
Will's recruitment of various friends (either from his home town or from
the Dylan group) as backup trolls.
When I'd asked Will's dominate sock (Stinky George) to cut back on his
posts (basically just slurp-swapping with Will), both he and Will
responded by doubling their efforts.
This only served to make everyone sick of their shenanigans, and more
and more members took to complaining about them as well.  When Will and
his sock attacked them, it quickly became a matter of Will and his socks
vs practically everyone else.
But the everyone else was never a team.  We were just a bunch of
individuals who wanted Will to STFU and die (preferably of cancer or
something equally slow and painful).  That doesn't mean we were ever a
"Team."  We were just the latest generation of "regulars" that the
Donkey had decided to drive away.

Independent thinker
wouls sooner or later disagree with him and challenge his opinions, with
the result that the fighting would move into his team, and it would
cease to act as a team.

>
Again, PJR never had a "team."  He considered Gwyneth and Horatio to be
"regulars," but they were obviously independent thinkers, and largely
ignored the trolls (Team Dunce).
>
PJR lumped me in with "Team Dunce" because I was openly trolling him and
his friends from alt.kooks.  (Again, I had swallowed your story that
alt.kooks were a group of Usenet "thugs" who bullied and harassed Usenet
posters for fun.  You'd actually claimed that they did it to blackmail
them, but even I was never *that* gullible.)
>
As to "playing the snob," I fully believe that PJR is a literary snob
who peppers his verses with snippets of Greek and Latin, and continually
alludes to classical music.  Not that I have any problem with such
snobbery.  Poetry is no longer a popular artform, but one that plays to
intellectuals and academics -- such "elitist" allusions are merely a
form of catering to one's audience.

>
Good; I'm glad that our conclusions agree about something. The only
disagreement I have is with your last line. Sych elitist behavior is
primarly a way to try to convince your antagonist of your superiority to
him - the effect on the audience is secondary.

Love him or hate him, one has to admit that PJR is both well educated
and intelligent.  An intelligent person knows they are not going to
think that they can convince anyone not suffering from low self-esteem
of their superiority to them.
Nor is PJR peppering his poetry with such allusions as a calculated
attempt to make his readers feel like morons.

It's the same reason that, for all his trying, Corey never made it onto
Team Mokey, either.

>
Were there such a thing as "Team Monkey".

>
As I said, it's as real (and as imaginary) as "Team Donkey"). Team
Monkey was you, Jim, and NG - you formed it in in 2017 to attack Stephan
(whom NG was trolling) and Will (whom Jim was by then trolling). I see
that I'll have to write about it more. But there's no reason to bury it
down here in a thread no one's likely to see; I'll have to put it on a
stand-alone thread, just like your misrepresenttions of /April/
magazine.

Team Donkey/Team Dunce has always existed because its members have
always believed that they are being persecuted by "jealous, malicious
trolls."
Team Monkey has only ever existed in Team Donkey's paranoid eyes.
Yes, NancyGene came to this group because she was trolling the late,
unlamented Pickles.  She stayed, after Pickles' death, because she has a
love of poetry, and has developed into a poet of the highest order in
only a short period of time.
Jim, however, was not trolling your Donkey.  Your Donkey conned him out
of $50 and he was justifiably pissed at him.

Corey would have been welcomed > as a member.

>
By you, I'm sure; but Jim hated him, and NG (who supported Jim) didn't
want him either. You couldn't have both of them. And, as I said, Corey
would not have been content to be a mere flunkie, but would have ended
up

But Corey *is* a member of the Official AAPC FB Group.  He's a member,
not a flunkie; and neither Jim nor NancyGene have shown any animosity
toward him there.

But there was never any such thing as "Team Monkey."  What
you call "Team Monkey" was simply the latest group of "regulars" -- a
group of individuals who acted independently of one another.

>
One could call you and Jim "regulars" because he'd been posting his
poetry here forever, and you'd been posting yours - but it's silly to
call NG one. They were here to troll Stephan and nothing else.

NancyGene has now been here for, what? Eight years?
She's not only a member of AAPC, but she proofreads, co-edits, and
creates the Index for AYoS.  She has earned the right to be called a
"regular" dozens of times over.

The only
thing the so-called "Team" had in common was their dislike of the
practices of Will Donkey and his socks, who buried any legitimate,
poetry-related conversations under an endless barrage of mutual
slurp-posts and spam.

>
Now, that may have been your own reason for disliking Will - that he was
burying your "work" -- or it may have just been a story you cooked up to
give Jim a reason to troll and flame Will. I've seen you repeat is to
often that I suspect it's the latter.

Again, Jim wasn't trolling him.  Will had conned him out of $50 and he
wanted an apology.
I have several reasons for disliking Will.
1) He intentionally drives members away by burying their posts under his
60+ post/day slurp-fest with his favorite sock. 2) His using AAPC to con
Jim and Corey out of money.  3) His life story (based on his
autobiographical entries on your Wiki and elsewhere).
I was, however, willing to work with him -- and offered various
"treaties" wherein some mutually acceptable co-existence here could be
achieved.  Ever the Donkey, Will repeatedly refused.

Corey, btw, is a participating member of the Official AAPC FB Group, and

has several poems appearing in our forthcoming year-end issue.

>
As I said, I'll check the back of your book covers later, if you'll give
me the time. As is, I'm spending too much time correcting your
misinformation, and don't intend to go off on any fact-checking projects
while you continue your  flaming of the few AAPC regulars left here.

It would be stupid of me to lie about something that can be easily
checked.
--