Re: I Met A Girl / Will Dockery

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 14:11:15 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:00:42 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
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On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 20:39:26 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
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On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 20:29:40 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

HarryLime wrote:

Will Dockery wrote:

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Here's the original unedited version so the readers can decide for
themselves:
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***
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I Met A Girl
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I met a girl
she came from California.
It was in a dream
we knew each other instantly.
She was a little freckled girl
from out of
my high school past.
>
And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey.
I've forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice.
>
We talked
a really detached situation.
She said years ago
I was so shy
she thought I was gay.
At this point I kissed her
and put my finger to her hole.
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And she looked up at me
and talked real spacey.
I have forgotten her name
though she told it to me twice.
>
I don't know why it was
that I would think of her.
I made a couple of puns
about her name that made me blush.
But her softness in tone
made me feel all right.
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All I want to do
is get in contact.
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-Will Dockery / May 8 1982

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***
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This poem was written in 1982, during my time in the Atlanta Georgia New
Wave punk rock scene, while also influenced by the earlier Beatnik poets
I was reading at the time, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and
Charles Bukowski among others.
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Both styles employed a sort of crude swagger in the tone and content
which I also used in many of my poems.
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All apologies to those offended.

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I suppose that's a start.
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Of course, an apologize is supposed to include owning up to one's
mistake -- not attempting to justify it as beatnik inspired swagger.
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You need to recognize that groping a woman you've just met is wrong.
Regardless of whether she's a punk rocker, or that you were acting under
the influence of beatnik poets.  Groping is wrong

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I didn't grope her.
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You're misrepresenting the scene again, Pendragon. We were just having
some fun, kissing and "making out" a little, as the young folks used to
call it.
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Nothing as serious as you want to make it out to be.
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HTH and HAND.

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Your poem makes it out to be

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No, that's just your misrepresentation of my poem, Pendragon.

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Mainly, you continue to lie and misrepresent, Harry.
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Answer my question

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I did, and continue to.
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See below:
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Okay, see below for my answer.
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If you ran into some guy you'd barely known in high school

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I know a lot of people from all walks of life, so such a meeting would
be welcome.
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If of course give him a autographed copy of my poetry book.
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Since that would be a completely different situation from the one in my
poem there would have been a completely different outcome.

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What's so different about it

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You don't know the difference between straight and gay sex?
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-- apart from the fact that you're the one

getting groped?

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I didn't grope anyone.
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--

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The events in my poem were consensual.
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Look that word up, Harry.

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"Consensual" is a label that you have applied to your poem in order to
justify the narrative to yourself.
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Again, I'm asking you to consider how you would feel if you had been the
one getting groped.
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That you gender identify as heterosexual is 100% beside the point.
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When you have just met someone

We know each other a few years earlier, at Carver High School.

you recognized
their face from high school five years earlier),

That's correct.

you have no means of
determining what level

You might not have
I did.

of sexual contact (if any) they're open to

Again, you might not, I could tell.
Obviously I had more experience in the art of love and romance than you
did then, possibly even now, Pendragon.

that particular time and place

No, it was a "no brsiner" really.

Men often misread social cues

Often but not always.
Definitely not this time.

from a woman, mistaking friendliness for
flirting

That's possible, and in such a case the person really needs to at least
say no, or stop.
That would be all the instruction I would have needed.

 Just because you were feeling attracted to her

And the feeling was definitely mutual.

that doesn't mean that she was also feeling attracted to you

Perhaps not but she obviously was.

 Since she
didn't press charges against you

Remember now, this was in a dream.
Actually in a poem.
Not real life.
I see in your attempt to misrepresent me, you've begun to quietly forget
that fact, Harry.

I'll assume that she was (or that she
was too embarrassed by the incident to talk about it).
>
Over the years, you've painted a picture of yourself as an old horndog

In your opinion only.

who'll jump in the sack with any woman who's willing

That's never actually been the case although I probably have had a lot
more sex than you have, from the conservative picture you painted of
your past.

 (your admission to
frequently employing the services of $10 whores

In certain times of my life, in certain circumstances.

shows just how
unselective you are in this regard.

It's never been completely random but I probably have had more sexual
encounters than you, not to brag, I've just been a single man for many
more years than you.

I therefore think it a safe bet to say that if a girl you barely knew
came up to you, planted a kiss on you

Okay, but it didn't happen that way.
You're trying to misrepresent my poem.

and stuck her finger up your butt,

Not the same.

you'd be totally into it.

Not really up the butt, a closet equivalent would be my penis and yes, I
confess I would have felt pretty lucky if the young lady had, say,
planted a kiss on it.
Since you asked.

Most women tend to be

Out of millions of women there are many different personalities.
But you already know that.

a little more selective in choosing their sexual
partners,

I can understand that, but it didn't happen that way this time.
I don't know why, possibly drinking and or drugs were part of the
situation.

and would consider having their crotch fingered, in public,

Okay, I know the poem is lacking a lot of detail but we weren't being
observed by a group of people or anything like that.
by

a man they'd just met to be an act of sexual assault.
>
Remember the Seinfeld episode where Elaine was disgusted that the man
she had been on a first date with "took *it* out"?  This man didn't even
touch her body -- he simply exposed his male member to her.  And Elaine
was far from being a prude.

I remember that episode, yes.

In order to hypothetically reverse the situation,

It would be more accurate if it was a woman checking out my penis.
Say, a hand job or better get a blow job.

we need to consider
how you would have felt

It would have dependent on my mood st the time. An attractive female
touching my penis would have very likely felt pretty good then, possibly
even now
A man touching me, almost certainly not a turn on at all.
Not being homophobic, but I'm simply not a gay man, then or now.

if someone with the potential to physically
overpower you (a man),

Potential, perhaps, but the encounter was entirely friendly and
consensual.
As I've repeatedly stated.

had done the same thing to you.

If she had said no, or stop, then I'd definitely have done so.
If I said no, or stop, I'd expect the same.
At that moment in time, the situation was going in a romantic direction
and we obviously both wanted to be where we were at that moment.

I know that you gender identify as heterosexual,

That's true.

and that you view
homosexual slurs as an assault on your manhood

That's what you intend them as, obviously.

but that's the point.

Obviously.

want to know how you would feel if you were in a situation where the
sexual contact (butt-fingering)

It wasn't her butt I was investigating, to clarify.

was definitely *unwanted* by you.

Probably the same as with almost anyone in that situation.
The point is that my poem isn't about a situation like that.
I know you want to make this attempt to misrepresent the events of my
poetry to stick but the fact remains your interpretation is incorrect.

If, as you keep saying, this was the wild and crazy 80s,

It was 1982, we barely even knew what AIDS was yet.
The scene was early 1982, in Atlanta.
Two young people who hit it off quickly.

and you were
with a group of wild and crazy punk rockers

Basically this was correct, but more a cross section of early 1980s
"cool" types.

-- many of whom were openly
engaging in sexual intercourse

I wasn't actually looking around at others, I was focused on my own
situation in that moment in time.

-- and that you're fingering he freckled
girl

I called her a girl in the poem but in 1982 she (and I) would be well in
our twenties.

was just a bit of (relatively) innocent fun...

That's exactly what it was, in that moment in May of 1982.
We met and talked and it became romantic.
This happens with two people sometimes, maybe not for you but it does,
did happen.

then this man's
fingering you,

No, I have a penis so for me I'd probably have gotten a hand job or a
blow job in a similar situation.
A woman playing with me penis wasn't considered unwelcome, I will
confess.
Definitely not in 1982 when I was just in my early twenties.
A man trying to jerk me off or blow me, wouldn't turn me on then or now
but I think you already know that.

should be seen flirtatious fun as well.

Personally, no.
If I was gay or bisexual possibly, but I wasn't of that orientation
inn1982 or now.
I can understand if you're a bisexual or gay man (I don't know that much
about your private life) it might seem like the same thing, but it
isn't.
Your milage may vary, of course.

Had that been the case, you would have said, "Sorry, man, I don't swing
that way," and moved on.
>
If, otoh, you would feel *violated* by his invasive finger,

The situation would never reach that level of intimacy.

then you
would begin to understand how a woman might feel

Might feel, yes.
This was over 40 years ago, and the encounter was definitely consensual.
I know you want to misrepresent what happened, but that face remains.

 when she's on the
receiving end of such aggressive, physical "flirtation" from a man.
>
Your insistence that the question wouldn't apply

It wouldn't.
I wouldn't even want to have sex with Allen Ginsberg or Truman Capote,
although I'm a fan of both writers.
I'm not gay, Harry, sorry if that spoils your fantasy.

because you gender
identify as heterosexual

Exactly, so why keep asking me?

Would not want any man
touching you there.

Why would I want a man touching me there?
I'm not gay, Harry.
Are you?
Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

And, had a man simply stuck his hand down you pants after exchanging a
few words of nondescript conversation,

Again, I'm not gay, Pendragon.
If a woman stuck her hand gown my pants it might be a different
situation.

you would feel like your body had
been violated.

You sure have a lot of homosexual sex on your mind this morning, Harry.
Just saying.
😏