Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:38:13 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 21:41:21 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>

HarryLime wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>

Victor H. wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
>
Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>
What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
Pendragon.
>
Says the
>
No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>
HTH and HAND.
>
Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?

>

You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.

>
It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age)

^^^ Pendragon's error later corrected ^^^

Again, you're wrong about the age of Neal Cassady.
>
He was basically in the same age group as Jack Kerouac and Allen
Ginsberg,
although I would have to check for the exact age.
>
You're either confused or lying to misrepresent the history.

>
I'm not talking about the history

So what, I am.
You made an incorrect statement and I corrected you.

The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name.  It is addressed to
someone known only as "Master."  The poem is therefore not about Neal
Cassady.

Experts and possibly Allen Ginsberg himself have stated the poem is
about Neal Cassady.
I'll find that information and link to it.

This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
relationship with Cassady.

As experts and possibly Allen Ginsberg himself have stated.
Again, I'll find the information and post a link or two.

A poem is composed of words.  A proper reading of a poem must confine
itself solely to the words.  If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
Cassady.

Experts, and possibly even Allow Ginsberg himself, have stated the poem
is about Neal Cassady.
I can look this up again and post links.

The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.
>
Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub.  I also read it as
hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice.  Both
readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
to coexist.

Okay, I can go along with that, but repeat the poem is obviously only
based on an Allen Ginsberg fantasy

Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
conclusions as myself.

No, that's just your opinion.

I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
Good for them.

Yes, glad to clear that confusion up.

The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.
>
--

Either way, there's no real life basis, the poem is Allen Ginsberg's
fantasy.