Re: OT: "Free speech" becomes a verb & noun...

On 2/1/2025 12:13 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

On Feb 1, 2025 at 9:04:13 AM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
 

On 1/31/2025 6:40 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

  On Jan 31, 2025 at 3:25:01 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
 

  On 1/31/2025 5:45 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

    On Jan 31, 2025 at 2:20:52 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
   

    On 1/31/2025 4:03 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

      On Jan 31, 2025 at 12:36:27 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com>
wrote:
     

      On 1/31/2025 1:03 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

        On Jan 31, 2025 at 9:37:23 AM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com>
  wrote:
       

        On 1/30/2025 6:55 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

          On Jan 30, 2025 at 2:43:15 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com>
    wrote:
         

          On 1/30/2025 4:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

            On Jan 30, 2025 at 12:13:03 PM PST, "moviePig"
<nobody@nowhere.com>
      wrote:
           

            On 1/30/2025 1:13 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

              On Jan 30, 2025 at 9:47:35 AM PST, "moviePig"
<nobody@nowhere.com>
        wrote:
             

              On 1/29/2025 11:59 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

                On Jan 29, 2025 at 8:37:20 PM PST, "moviePig"
  <nobody@nowhere.com>
          wrote:
               

            "Trump administration to cancel student visas of pro-Palestinian
            protesters"
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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-administration-cancel-student-visas-all-hamas-sympathizers-white-house-2025-01-29/

                          It's a deportable offense under the U.S. Code for a
resident alien to
          advocate for or express support for a terrorist organization.

>
              So then, I'm guessing this administration would've championed
              deportations from Skokie in '77.  What do you think?

                          Was there a designated terrorist organization involved in Skokie,
      and were
            the participants resident aliens or American citizens?

>
            Is "pro-Palestine" a terrorist organization?

                        Nice try. Waving the actual flag of Hamas is not simply
    'pro-Palestine'.
            Neither is chanting the official Hamas motto from its own charter:
        "From the
            river to the sea."
           

               Is pro-Nazi not?

                        The American Nazi Party was not a designated terrorist
    organization and
        even
            if it was, all those marching were American citizens, not resident
      aliens.

>
          "A designated terrorist organization" sounds a lot like "It's
  different
          when WE do it".

                    Regardless, if a group hasn't been listed as a designated terrorist
      group by
          the Department of State, then the statute does not apply. Back in
    the 70s,
          when the Skokie march occurred, the American Nazi Party was not a
      designated
          terrorist organization, nor were the participants foreign nationals.
         

          Trump is punishing these students for their speech

                    No, he's enforcing American immigration law, something that you
    apparently
          can't stand, and which Biden failed to do for four straight
years. No,
        that's
          wrong. Biden didn't fail to do it. That implies a lack of intent. He
      refused
          to do it.
         

          once again leveraging populist spleen to flout bedrock American
      principles.

                    It's not an American principle to allow agents of violent foreign
      jihadists
          that hate America to come to this country and radicalize our own
      population
        to
          their cause. That is in no way, shape, or form something the 1st
    Amendment
        was
          intended to protect.
         

            I can't fathom any free-speech advocate's support of this.

                    Well, I can't fathom your constant opposition to most of
what the 1st
          Amendment *does* protect, so we'll call it a wash.

>
        Call it a whitewash, because it is.  These students are being punished
        for voicing support of Palestine

                If they're hoisting the flag of Hamas and chanting "from the river
  to the
        sea", then they're doing a lot more than voicing support for
Palestine.
        American citizens are allowed to do that but if you're a guest in our
      country
        you better be on your best behavior and not go all in for a terrorist
        organization that advocates for the destruction of America.
                We don't need you here. You have no right to be here. So endorsing
  a group
        whose stated goal is the destruction of our country (along with
Israel)
      while
        here as our guest has consequences. Fuck around and find out.
       

        Suffice to suppose that, if this deportation initiative were
Democratic,
        you'd be apoplectic.

                I'd be apoplectic because I'd be shocked to my core that the current
    crop of
        Democrats were actually deporting anyone for anything.
                My idiotic mayor, fresh off her spectacularly appalling performance
  during
      the
        wildfires, was on TV yesterday reassuring "the immigrant community"
    that the
        city of Los Angeles will protect you from ICE no matter what crimes
  you've
        committed. She's literally on TV telling rapists, murderers,
  thieves, and
        narco-traffickers that she has their back.
                Never mind that "the immigrant community" she's so worried
about has no
      desire
        to have those violent shitbags turned loose on their streets any
  more than
        anyone else does.

>
      I get that you're pleased with the practical result of Trump's vendetta,
      just as (I assume) you're pleased that we've let Trump skate on
      attempted election corruption.  I just can't see how you're comfortable
      with the cost to our basic principles (...with more likely to follow).

            What basic principles require us to tolerate the presence of illegal
  aliens
    at
      all, let alone illegal aliens that commit depraved violent crimes
against
    our
      citizens?

>
    So, the ends justify the means?

        Still waiting for you to describe what basic principles require us to
  tolerate
    the presence of illegal aliens at all, let alone illegal aliens that
commit
    depraved violent crimes against our citizens?
        And what "means" are you talking about? Police finding the criminals like
  they
    would any other fugitive, arresting them, and putting them on a plane back
  to
    their country of origin? Those "means"? Yes, they are most certainly
    justified.

>
  The "means" are the abrogation of our free-speech principle

    Says the guy who has no problem with censorship if government decides the
  speech involved isn't worthy enough.

>
That sounds misinformed.  Perhaps you can be more specific...

 You've repeatedly said that censorship of speech is acceptable if that speech
is trolling rather than promoting an idea.

If "trolling" means 'spoken only to injure' (e.g., "hate speech"), then, yes,I contend that's assault masquerading as speech.  The use of language does not confer a halo (...or so I would have it).  And note that 'censorship' per se does indeed target *ideas*, not actions.

  and our turning a blind eye to blatant election fraud.

    What does election fraud have to do with any of this?

>
Trump has violated both election integrity and free speech, and is
getting a pass.  One can only wonder what's next ...religious freedom?
I mean, it's just another govt.-dictated personal choice, isn't it?

 Oh, so we've gone from talking about a specific thing to "anything Trump has
done that Pig doesn't like".
 Gotcha.

No, we've *always* been talking about Trump trampling American ideals.
   >>>   I'm asking about the ICE round-ups of violent illegal alien criminals--

  something you objected to-- and exactly how that somehow violates "basic
  American principles".

>
If you "round up" only those who voice ideas you don't like, then yeah,
that's contrary to the principle of free speech ...no matter how glad
you are to be rid of those folks.

 Except that's not what's happening. The resident aliens who are looking at
deportation committed a specific offense under the U.S. Code. They didn't just
say something I don't like. They could be advocating for gun confiscation
(which I don't like) and they'd nevertheless be perfectly fine. However, in
this instance, they're advocating for a designated terrorist organization,
which is a no-no if you're here on a student visa. And this isn't a surprise
to them, either. It's something that is thoroughly explained to them ahead of
time during the student visa process, so there's no "I didn't know" excuse for
them.

First, 'Palestinian' isn't a 'designated terrorist organization'. Second, giving only certain groups freedom of expression is un-American.

And the others who are being rounded up are criminal shitbags who are not only
illegals but are also committing a whole host of other violent crimes against
American citizens.
 Oh, and I'm *still* waiting for you to describe what basic American principles
require us to tolerate the presence of illegal aliens at all, let alone
illegal aliens that commit depraved violent crimes against our citizens?

"Illegal aliens" is a separate topic, irrelevant to my objection here, except as the offense you'd compromise principles in order to prosecute.