Re: There's a little bit of blame to spread around...

On 2024-07-23 02:55, Sir Tim wrote:

KMark <mpconmy@gmail.com> wrote:

Geoff <geoff@geoffwood.org> wrote:

On 22/07/2024 9:49 pm, Yazoo wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 16:09:11 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>

...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
>
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
>
This overhead does show Hamilton made a very early turn-in:
>
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
>
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

>
Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

>
I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

>
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
>
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
>
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
>
Hmmm...PKB
>

 I agree with everything you say.
 It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
 At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

 In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had more than enough experience to know couldn't work.