Re: There's a little bit of blame to spread around...

On 2024-07-23 14:57, Geoff wrote:

On 24/07/2024 3:48 am, Mark wrote:

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

On 2024-07-23 02:55, Sir Tim wrote:

Mark <mpconmy@gmail.com> wrote:

>
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
>
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
>
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
>
Hmmm...PKB
>

>
I agree with everything you say.
>
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
>
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

>
Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
>
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

>
It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
to a pass that simply wasn't going to work - and that's what I wrote
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.
>
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.
>

Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

>
We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.
>

One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

>
Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.
>

In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

>
I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

>
If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

 'Two minutes' ? More like over the whole race !

It was actually very little guys:
<https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-radio-transcript-gianpiero-lambiase-2024-hungarian-grand-prix>
He had 11 radio exchanges in total.
Of those, maybe three expressed any "anger".