Re: There's a little bit of blame to spread around...

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

On 2024-07-23 08:48, Mark wrote:

>
Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
>
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

 
It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
to a pass that simply wasn't going to work - and that's what I wrote
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

 
But that's the point:
 
The overtaking driver doesn't get to just "commit" to an attempt that
makes it the responsibility of the driver he's trying to pass to do
something to get out of the way.
 
Yes: Verstappen knew Hamilton was there and that is why he was running
through Copse more than a car's width wide of the apex. But that is all
he was obliged to do.
 
And because Hamilton's move comes when Verstappen is deeper in the
corner (because he's ahead) he has FEWER options. He could have done
what Leclerc did and drive off the track, but he wasn't obliged to do
so. Hamilton was obliged to pull off the overtake cleanly.

Just as with Verstappen on Sunday, Hamilton wasn't fully in control IMO.
Verstappen wasn't obliged to do more, but turning into Hamilton was
never going to end well.

You may take a different view. Frankly given your attitude (above and
below), I don't really care.

He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.
 

Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

 
We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.
 

One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

 
Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

 
It IS a failure to understand. You seem to think you can just lift a
little and all will be well. It isn't that simple; particularly in
high-speed big commitment corners.

I never said it was simple.

I have to teach students that when they're at the limit...REALLY at the
limit, lifting off will result in a spin; a spin, BTW, which will often
start with the car moving INWARD as lifting the throttle transfers grip
to the front tires.
 

 

In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

>
I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

 
If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

 
I think you give too little credit to a driver who is (whether you want
to acknowledge or not) one of the best in the world right now. I don't
think he could have got where he is today if he were to let anger with
his team come out in his driving.

When did I fail to acknowledge that? You are imagining words that I
didn't say and then telling me I'm wrong for saying things that I didn't
say.

So yeah: it might have been influenced by his emotions at the time, but
for you to declare it absolutely was (as you now appear to be doing)...
 
...that's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

I listened to angry rants from him in the run up to a poor move, and I
will stand by my opinion that he was allowing his emotion get the better
of him. That's not arrogance, it's an F1 fan of many years expressing an
opinion.

What's arrogant is someone who thinks that claiming some specific racing
experience entitles them to tell everyone else they aren't entitled to
an opinion because they know better. Either they are so spectacularly
narcissistic that they believe they have a god-given right to "correct"
their (perceived) inferiors.

Personally, I post to usenet to hear others' views - including those I
disagree with - and to engage in a meaningful, friendly debate where I
may (or may not) persuade those others. Posting dull, pompous objections
using "argument from authority" rarely persuades, and never appeals.

(Feel free to come back with even more pompous claptrap, I won't be
interested or responding)