Am Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:33:59 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<
roger@sarlet.com>:
Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am Tue, 16 Apr 2024 19:34:15 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
[... some aspects you didn't respond to, deleted for brevity]
I’ve ridden e bikes and with
others on e bikes, motorcycles they are not,
They sure are
>
E MTB are 20/25kg all in, which is a noticeable heft over a trail MTB
14/16KG and yes you do notice the weight with both the benefits ie
suspension works better ie more of the mass is sprung than unsprung for
example, but also its downsides ie less manoeuvrable needs to be muscled
though things, hence some E lite MTB are available with weights between the
two.
Adding a motor and an electronic controller simulating the behaviour of
a bicycle is what defines the current generation of 25 km/h e-bikes:
these are motorcycles, but give the illusion of a human powered vehicle.
Of course you rarely notice the additional mass caused by motor,
battery, suspension and perhaps a heavier frame. That's the very point
of that concept!
My current bicycle is based on a gravel bike/randonneur frame and
somewhat on the heavy side for a bike with drop bars, but still weights
less than 10 kg. Adding fenders and a rack using the available mounting
points on the frame, or choosing a suspension fork wouldn't have made it
that much heavier. But as a low powered human with limited endurance, I
rather be able to ride up hills a little steeper, be able to ride a
little faster on flat ground and do it for a few more kilometers. So
even half a kg counts.
With most of the motors that Bosch offers for 25 km/h e-bikes, I
wouldn't have any of these concerns. I could ride up and down Mont
Ventoux a few times without breaking a sweat.
In short: those e-bikes aren't just somewhat motorized, they are
_heavily_ motorized, a lot more motorized than necessary to give an
noticable advantage over a a person riding a human powered bicycle.
>
Electric motorbikes for off road use are another 100KG on top of that, it’s
a very different experience.
Motorcycles do indeed come in a wide range of power and sizes. However,
this does not turn low-powered motorcycles into bicycles.
>
Let alone that E bikes power output is still within realms of human
capacity, ie peak output is sub 1000watts ie 600 ish which is absolutely
reachable, even by club cyclists some Pros such as Chris Hoy where in the
2,500 watt range which really is unreachable for most.
That isn't really the case, see below.
But thats beside the point. The point being, giving a weak person the
peak power and the endurace of a world class athlete is just a fancy way
of describing the substitution of muscle power by motor power.
Your wrong about the fact, too, and I've already mentioned that in
earlier discussions. You ignore that humans have a power curve much
different from a motor, even when accounting for that bicycle simulation
done by its controller. And you convently ignore that most humans
aren't professional competetive cyclists.
I am, at least according to Garmins profiling, in the best 5 percent of
my age class wrt VO2max, I'm still able to ride 100 km / 1000 m
cumulative altitude gain
<
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20240315t0923-2024_03_14_bonn_effelsberg.html>
(German language article)
<
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20240213t1101-2022_08_08_bonn_effelsberg_willerscheid_by_racing_bike_https_diasp.html>
(English)
but I'm unable to produce more than about 90-100 W of sustained power
and ride faster than about 20 km/h on average, for distances and
altitudes like that.
But consider my power curve. I too could do a measured peak power of
~1000W - once, in July 2018, for one second. I even could do a peak of
400 W - during the last three months, for twenty seconds. Even almost
250 W peak power (232 W, in fact) was doable over 30 seconds - once, in
spring 2017. But I barely reached 250 W during the last four weeks,
once, for 20 seconds.
On the other hand, if I wouldn't mind carrying a spare battery in the
panniers of an e-bike, I could ride the whole day and a night on flat
ground, without needing more power than just walking around slowly.
Assuming the lowest non-eco "assist" modes of just doubling your power,
you'll need only about 50 W of your own power for that, on a bicyle much
heavier than necessary. You wouldn't even need a spare battery, that
way, there are e-bikes with two standard packs a 500 Wh builtin, that's
good for 20 hours, then.
Of course, I could choose one of the turbo+ modes, say, 340 Percent,
select one of the more "sporty" E-Bikes, less weight, better
aerodynamics, ride 22 km/h, and use even less of my own power. Even
better, from the point of view of a motorized bicycle, I now could use
that turbo mode for doing those pesky six percent ascents much faster.
Needing about 120 W, I can do these with about 6-8 km/h. Doing these
with 22 km/h, and acounting for the weight of motor and battery, needs
about 407 W, with only 92 W of my own muscle power, using that turbo
mode. Perfect!
But not so fast ;-), 309 W > 250 W, this might run into the one half
hour limitation. Could that become a problem? Nah, not for me. That
cumulative altitude gain of 500-2000 m at max doesn't contain any
continous ascents of more than 300 m, in fact it is going up and down
between 60 m above Nn and ~600 m at max from here.
So there is no need not to use that 340 Percent turbo mode all the time
for riding up those hills at max speed, just like with any motorized
vehicle. Neither is there a need to spend those 90-100 W on those
hills, not even when going up some which are twice or trice as steep. 15
km/h is good enough and still twice as fast as doing it with muscle
power. Using turbo mode, I could do that with while spending only about
55 W of my own power. Same with 12 % with an easily done 8 km/h.
The latter example is interesting insofar, as I regularely ride up a
steep 12 % hill nearby, for fun and excercise. About 50 m of altitude
gain, done about ten times. It is difficult because it needs (and
trains) both strengh and coordination. Strength, because riding uphill
on broken asphalt at a low speed of about 4 km/h still needs more power
than I can sustain for a long time, coordination, because at that speed
riding around obstacles without slowing down even more, needs some
skill. On the positive side, it not only needs these capabilities, it
creates these capabilities, over time. An e-bike used as intended, like
most, does not.
I used an opportunity to try an 25 km/h e-bike on a steep hill over a
day during our vacation last year, because our host gave it to us as
part of the rent. Riding up to a small village on top op a nearby
hill, a gradient between 8 % in the lower and 11 percent in the upper
part, riding a few times up and down there allowed me to assess that old
e-bike from AFAIR 2016.
Riding up such a hill by e-bike is at least as easy as using a gas
powered moped from the sixties, and a lot easier than, say, riding a
Velo Solex there, which nobody who isn't out of his mind would call a
bicycle. Modern e-bikes became much better during the last decade, from
the point of view of people selling that stuff. Turbo modes got some
percent points more and more customization, the additional modes make it
difficult to estimate the actuall proportion. The simulation has been
smoothed and the illusion has been perfected.
For reference
<
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm>
"Roadster" as a bicycle type in the english version is called
"Hollandrad" (dutch type bicycle) in the orignal German language
version. Select roadster, metric units, add 10 kg to the bicyle weight,
clear power, type "20" into the speed field, hit calculate.
[repetionions, omitted]
Doubling your own power, adding 100 % and calling that "pedal assist" is
a bad joke. But as I said, most new motors from Bosch (and others, I
presume) "assist" with up to 340 %. That isn't a joke, anymore.
Have you either ridden E bikes or with friends who have them?
For what purpose?
I have, for the latest event see above. I don't need friends with
e-bikes to ride with, in order to watch, measure and assess the
behaviour of e-bikers. While doing my tours through the region, I have
to ride up to and cross a highland about 100 m above where I live. It is
a forest called "Kottenforst", which serves as a local recreational area
for my home town, too. On that way and while crossing that area I have
seen enough behaviours to recognize a collection of types.
Even better, my bicycle is equipped with a powermeter, so I have a
continuous display (and a log) of how much power I use, plus additional
relevant data, like speed, gradient and distance. Riding behind somebody
at the same speed gives a quite good estimate of the lower bound of the
necessary power of a clumsy e-bike. Estimating the real power,
considering the type of bicycle and rider isn't that difficult, either.
<
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kottenforst>
<
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20240101/bilanz2023b4.jpg>
Personally
it’s like riding with very fit club mates which I also have.
Sure. Just like those very fit TdF professionals, who like to be filmed
by camera operators on motorcycles riding with them.
Alas, it's not about what you like, but about what makes a bicycle a
bicycle.
Personally, I like to stay fit enough to get around on a bicycle as long
as possible. Staying away from e-bikes is part of the strategy, just
like staying away from junk food made with lots of sugar, fat and salt
is part of a strategy not to get obese.
-- Thank you for observing all safety precautions
…