Re: Commuter innovation

On 4/3/2024 3:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 4/2/2024 3:04 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 4/2/2024 9:50 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
I'm not sure if you're including typical "protected bike lanes" in your
"full on separated" category or not. But the "protected" bike lane I've
linked to before (near our city's downtown) is shunned by almost all
cyclists in part because of its debris. The low concrete separators are
apparently not able to stop gravel, etc. from being flung in from the
road. And those separators do have gaps for driveway access.

>
At least the one you linked seems very poorly implemented and next to
industrial/commercial buildings and as such likely to collect debris
quickly, ie it’s something of self fulfilling proficiency.

>
You seem to be employing the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.
>
I'm giving shortcomings of bike facilities as they actually exist here.
Wolfgang has done the same for those actually existing in Germany. I'm
not impressed by claims saying "Well, _those_ are badly done," and
implications that few have the documented problems.
>

That one cycle lane you’ve highlighted is subpar we’ve agreed on that, your
cherry picking your data to try to defend your ideology/political views.

 I'm not cherry picking. Regarding bad design or bad maintenance, I'm describing what I've seen and what data has revealed in countless cities.

You cherry picked one article that you thought supported your position, and as Jeff pointed out, the article didn't do a very good job of it. If you're relating 'data from countless cities', we have yet to see any evidence of it.

The fundamental fact is, so few people are interested in ditching their cars that it's foolish for municipal governments to spend real money on either design or maintenance. Funds are limited and budgets are real, so corners are cut.
 And about design: Many starry-eyed facility advocates say "It's so easy!" But totally separate bike paths are impossible in almost all locations, because commercial land (i.e. where people actually need to go) is already owned by someone, and is very valuable. There are rare exceptions (apparently your embankment is one), but pretending that's somehow normal is blatant cherry picking.

It's neither rare, nor an exception, nor cherry picking from Rogers experience, and is well supported by the many other Europeans who post in this forum describing the government run infrastructure supporting bike lane use, _successfully_.

 And integrating a bike lane into an existing road runs up against a fundamental geometric problem: You're almost always trying to put straight-ahead bike traffic to the right (in the U.S.) of motor vehicles that may be turning right. The conflict should be obvious. That practice is not allowed in any other road situation, for good reasons.

We get it. You hate cycling infrastructure. You think it's a waste of time and money, and consider it to be inherently unsafe and unworkable.

ISTM we're dealing with vague fantasies of huge herds of cyclists flowing hassle-free and dwarfing the motorist population. Decades of effort and resulting data have proven that it's really just fantasy.

Europe has proven otherwise. This isn't an issue of objective, inherent, and insurmountable problems as you claim, it's one of USAian attitude. Here's one example:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/2/22/bike-lane-debate-continues-cambridge/
"The qualitative survey results in the study revealed that more than 60 percent of the business owners believe their revenues declined following the installation of the bike lanes.
“That is what they’re feeling. That is what their experience is. And even though it couldn’t be matched up with financial data, it’s still a great concern as to what is happening with our businesses,” Councilor Joan F. Pickett said."
Let me point out the relevant issue for certain other willfully ignorant trolls in this forum (no, Frank, that isn't directed at you):
"60 percent of the business owners believe their revenues declined following the installation of the bike lanes....even though it couldn’t be matched up with financial data".
Trying to analogize your disdain for efforts in this country with successful examples in other parts of the world isn't going to work.
The only objective, inherent, and insurmountable problem is USAian selfishness.

 

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