Re: Bicyclist decapitated

On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
 

On 4/29/2024 7:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:18:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>

On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

   I beg to partially differ.  If we assume that all the known elements
are present in roughly the same distributions throughout the universe,
there's a good chance that self-replicating life processes will be
built using the same elements as on planet Earth.  "Carbon atoms are
unique because they can bond together to form very long, durable
chains that can have branches or rings of various sizes and often
contain thousands of carbon atoms."
<https://www.nature.com/articles/139290a0.pdf>
The emergence of life is possible with comparatively inferior elements
but the main building block will mostly likely be a stable atom that
will build the strongest and move versatile bonds to other atoms.

>

Agreed. I confess to low talent for chemistry. But I've not yet heard of
a detailed proposal for a chemistry of life built on anything but carbon.
>
If someone here has such a proposal, I'd happily run it by the chemists
in our family.

>
Did you search for "silicon based life"?  There is quite a bit on the
possible existence of Silicon based life:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=possibility+of+silicon+based+life>

 

I've read about the possibilities of silicon for decades now, but I've
never seen details on exactly how it would form the hugely complex
molecules necessary for life, let alone self-replicate them.

 That's easy.  Take a complex hydrocarbon, probably an amino acid, rip
out the carbon atom and replace it with a silicon atom.  Keep the
results away from water.  The double helix zipper should work as well
for silicon as it does for carbon.
 The possibilities of human powered flight goes back to the Greeks and
Icarus in approx 8 CE.  It wasn't until 1898, when Otto Lilianthal
built a glider that worked more than once.  The first human powered
flight was in 1961 by Derek Piggot using pedal power.  During those 19
centuries between mythology and something that actually flew, humanity
wasn't idle.  The wise and the brave made their attempts and usually
failed.  That didn't discourage their successor.  Everyone knew that
it could be done.  They just didn't know how.  Eventually, the magic
formula for human powered flight was discovered and progress lurched
forward at an incredible rate.  For 19 centuries, progress was
measured in false hopes, crashes, fatalities and discouragement from
those who should have known better:
"Premature Judgment"
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
There are about 10 quotes, from the eminent luminaries of their times,
indicating that flight was impossible.  For example:
 "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
    -- Lord Kelvin
 I suggest you print a copy of the above quotes, and read them whenever
you fell compelled to discourage progress or claim that something is
impossible, impractical or useless.  I also read it when dealing with
a long succession of failures and dismal results.  The road to success
it littered with the wreckage of past failures.  The trick is to not
trip over the wreckage.
 

Those are the details I'd like to run by the chemists I know.

 Why?  Are they sufficiently imaginative to contrive a solution to the
silicon life problem?  That's the problem with experts.  If they can't
design something that works, they immediately assume that nobody else
can.  That's what Dr Lindemann did when he analyzed the aerial photos
of the V2 on the ground and declared that it was too heavy to get off
the ground because he assume that it was powered by cordite, not
ethanol and LOX.
 

Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon based life _may_
be possible, but is highly unlikely.

 You don't need an expert to tell you that silicon based life is
impossible.  You only need an expert to verify that your proposed
solution has a chance of working.  That's what design reviews are for.
Also, if you are sufficiently desperate that you need the advice of an
expert, then you are not sufficiently informed, educated or
experienced about the problems.  Ask your expert to explain to you the
problems involved in creating a silicon based life form on earth and
in a possible alien environment.  You're likely to learn more from a
list of potential problems and possible solutions than from an
expert's summary judgment.
 Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above URL.  Most of
the names listed were at the peak of their profession in their day.
Look them up with Google to convince yourself that they are real.  Ask
yourself "what were they thinking when they said that?"  In some
cases, they had good reason to give the wrong advice, usually the
result of being involved in a previous failure.  Like Lindemann, they
assumed that if they had failed, then everyone after them will also
fail.

Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature Judgment quotes.
Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever entity is involved in that effort.
Do you happen to have its email address?   ;-)
--
- Frank Krygowski