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Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:I am not an expert, but it seems that the net effect (less auto ownership and use in Europe) has many causes, a major one being that the net cost of ownership (includes purchase, maintenance, fuel expense, insurance expense, regulation/taxation, parking cost etc) is significantly higher as a proportion of net disposable income than in USA.On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 16:46:02 +0200, Rolf MantelEssentially the risks are almost entirely brought by motorists so really if
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 27.06.2024 um 11:01 schrieb Catrike Ryder:>On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 23:26:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski>
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>On 6/26/2024 7:01 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:>On 6/25/2024 4:48 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:That is one of the reasons london and other places have automatic countersFrank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:>>Again national mode share particularly the US with a significant rural
I'm sure Youngstown's bike mode share is minuscule, just like almost all
U.S. cities. Remember, the national average is far below one percent.
And despite all the "innovative" segregated infrastructure, it's falling.
>
population is not a useful metric.
>
Cities are where its at, and probably 5 mile or less journeys.
That may be true. But data for U.S. cities is not much better. I
frequent four or five medium to large U.S. cities. Only one has a
noticeable amount of bike use, and the great bulk of that is connected
with several inner-city colleges. Two others have extensive bike lanes
that are always empty of bikes.
>
as they knew darn well that taxi etc would say I never see a bike! This
said clearly london is doing rather better and more than US cities let
alone number of European cities.
>
Essentially bikes dont clump up in the same way as cars etc do.
This is not some visual deception. A couple years ago my wife and I did
a multi-day vacation in a large Ohio city, visiting museums, shopping
centers, bike shops, etc. We saw miles and miles of bike lanes, but
almost zero bikes using them. Near the very center of the downtown we
saw some electric scooters in bike lanes, but no bikes.
>
Fundamentally, very few Americans bike for utility.
>>>>Why is it falling? I suspect one factor is the constant propaganda>
claiming everyone NEEDS a barrier-segregated facility to be safe on a
bike. That tells almost everybody "You can't ride a bike until that
stuff gets built." IOW, never.
>
Thats clutching at straws really is! dont think the massive increase in
car sizes/volumes car centric infrastructure? To name but a few over the
last 70 so years?
You can't deny that there have also been massive increases in
"innovative" bike facilities! And car size is largely irrelevant.
Car size absolutely has its issues mainly width, and blocking views.
>
Most of the cycle lanes have been some bike symbols or painted lanes or
possibly some disjointed shared paths. Only segregated stuff seems to have
been alongside major roads which only exist as they need to keep access see
my old 1959 cycleway as example.
>
And very little if anything innovative, more box ticking.
"Innovative" doesn't impress me. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the
"innovative" stuff that includes collision hazards or wheel deflection
hazards for the cyclists. It's the "innovative" stuff that sends
cyclists wrong-way into intersections.
>
And as I've said before, the "Paint & Path" fans have been moving the
goalposts for decades. "Bike lane stripes will get people out of their
cars!" But when that didn't happen, "Buffered bike lanes will get people
out of their cars!" When that didn't happen "Green paint will get people
out of their cars!" When that didn't happen, "Flex post barriers will
get people out of their cars!" When that didn't happen "Concrete
barriers will get people out of their cars!"
>
Innovation after innovation has been provided, as demanded. People are
still massively preferring cars to bikes.
>
And despite ever more lanes, paths, green paint, barriers, etc. bike
mode share is falling. See
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/09/27/biking-to-work-isn-t-gaining-any-ground-in-the-us/67b4a9e2-5d32-11ee-b961-94e18b27be28_story.html
>
Or see
https://data.bikeleague.org/data/national-rates-of-biking-and-walking/
>
Or see
https://activetrans.org/busreports/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/2020regionalmodesharereport.pdf
>It really isnt because someone said its dangerous to ride a bike or they>
should wear a helmet.
So you say. But people regularly report that they think bicycling is too
dangerous. And they are frequently told that without special facilities,
bicycling is too dangerous. I'm surprised you don't admit the
possibility of a causative link.
People believe riding in vehicle traffic is dangerous because they can
see for themselves that it is, not because of someone telling them
that it is.
I know that people do not have a sense for "dangerous", they only have a
sense for "scary". Scary is "potentially dangerous and very visible".
>
The main difference can be called "traps": dangerous but not scary
because they are almost invisible.
>
Most scary situations in traffic pose little real danger: the truck as
opposed to the lion is not out to get you. It is out to avoid hitting
you.
Therefore, in traffic you should behave opposite to in nature. It might
be meaningful to hide from a lion but it is most counter-productive to
hide from a truck.
>
So in traffic the dangerous situations are traps: the cyclist should
*learn* what is dangerous, like a trapper (because the drivers might not
see you in time) rather than feel intutively what is scary.
>
Rolf
Having been in automobile accidents (none of them my fault) I know
what's dangerous. My experience says that drivers (and bicyclists) not
paying attention is very dangerous. If we could clear that one
problem, driving and bicycling would be far less dangerous.
>
one wants to reduce deaths and serious injury it’s there we need to look,
it’s why various European cities are becoming less car centric.
Roger Merriman
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