Re: Helmet efficacy test

On 3/27/2025 7:28 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 3/27/2025 8:26 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

On 3/27/2025 12:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 3/26/2025 4:19 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:

On 3/26/2025 12:51 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

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Regarding relevance: What are you trying to achieve?

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A factual discussion on helmet efficacy.

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OK, I'd say we're doing that.

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No, you're hung up on marketing.

 Well, "hung up" on the weird promotion of bike helmets as hugely important, and the related false claim that bicycling is so dangerous that foam protective hats are really necessary.

Glad you finally admit your issue is primarily with marketing tactics

 

OK, I'm wondering why you promote bike helmets.
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Are you saying "Forget the monetary cost. Brain injuries are so terrible we need to prevent them any way possible."?

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nope

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Then again, I'm wondering why you promote bike helmets.
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Are you focused ONLY on calling attention to bicycling's dangers?

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nope

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So I wonder why you advocate helmets only for bike riding, not for other more important causes of TBI injuries and fatalities.

 And I'm still wondering.

A) I don't teach people to walk, b) that's where I choose to focus my energy, just as someone who choose to focus on fundraising for https://www.serbias-forgotten-paws.com/ rather than their local homeless shelter.

 

I promote helmets because they work.

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But your promotion efforts seem to apply only to bicycling. I very much doubt that you really feel foam helmets "work" _only_ in bicyclists.

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This is true,
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I think at the root of your helmet enthusiasm is a belief that bicycling really is a very important source of serious and/or fatal TBI.

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Nope.

 So explain. You now seem to say they would work for other causes of TBI. And you say bicycling is not a very important or serious risk of TBI. But you still tell people just riding on roads that they should wear helmets. Apparently you don't do the same for people walking near roads, despite evidence of greater risk. Nor for people riding in cars, who dominate the TBI statistics for transportation.

All of that is true.

 

And I've stated repeatedly that there are times that I _don't_ wear a helmet. It's all about the risk mitigation. A casual ride on a rail trial isn't likely going to end up with me hitting the pavement, a tree, a truck....etc.

 "I've always counseled people riding on public roadways ... to wear helmets." All public roadways?

Yes.

 

You've linked old articles. I've already linked new ones that show the data. Here they are again since it seems you;ve chose to ignore them
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https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7025438/

 ?? That's 1999! And I can give lots of detail on that Cochrane study, the one in which Thompson and Rivara used inclusion criteria that allowed primarily their own studies, and rejected several pertinent studies that reached different conclusions.

That actually is the Thompson and Rivar study, and you're correct it's old.
Try these:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6747631/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28945822/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29677686/

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x

 There seemed to be no data addressing the severely increased national count of bicyclist concussions.

But there is a discussion on the efficacy of helmets. If you'd like to divert the conversation to be specifically about the increase in concussions, say so.

 

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https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2021/New-CDC-Report-Finds- More-Adults-Are-Dying-from-Bicycle-Related-Accidents-CPSC-Says-it- Highlights-the-Importance-of-Helmets

 That had no information on helmet efficacy. It did note a significant increase in cyclist deaths, but it certainly did not point to a corresponding decrease in helmet use, which would have been necessary to hint at your point. The "helmets are important" bit is just an uncorroborated opinion in that piece.

It might help if you followed the links in the release, especially the CDC report.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7019a1-H.pdf

 It's clear to me that you are now using a shotgun technique, posting links to any articles that are vaguely helmet promotional. If you have articles that specifically make some particular point we've been discussing, give me a quotation as well as the link.

Pretty much every article I've linked gives at least references to data supporting helmet efficacy.
Need more? From the above links:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6747631/
"There was a significantly higher crude 30-day mortality in un-helmeted cyclists 5.6% (4.8%–6.6%) versus helmeted cyclists 1.8% (1.4%–2.2%) (p<0.001)."
"Cycle helmet use was also associated with a reduction in severe traumatic brain injury (TBI) 19.1% (780, 18.0%–20.4%) versus 47.6% (1211, 45.6%–49.5%) (p<0.001), intensive care unit requirement 19.6% (797, 18.4%–20.8%) versus 27.1% (691, 25.4%–28.9%) (p<0.001) and neurosurgical intervention 2.5% (103, 2.1%–3.1%) versus 8.5% (217, 7.5%–9.7%) (p<0.001)."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28945822/
"Helmet use was shown to be protective against intracranial injury in general (OR 0.2, CI 0.07-0.55, p = 0.002). A protective effect against subdural haematoma was demonstrated (OR 0.14, CI 0.03-0.72, p = 0.02). Wearing a helmet was also protective against skull fractures (OR 0.12, CI 0.04-0.39, p<0.0001) but not any other specific extracranial injuries."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29677686/
"179 effect estimates from 55 studies from 1989-2017 are included in the meta-analysis. The use of bicycle helmets was found to reduce head injury by 48%, serious head injury by 60%, traumatic brain injury by 53%, face injury by 23%, and the total number of killed or seriously injured cyclists by 34%. "

 Good examples would be articles explaining why, if helmets are so protective, bike concussions are so much higher than in pre-helmet days.

The more I'm reading the studies I've linked, the more I'm questioning the veracity of "bike concussions are so much higher than in pre-helmet days". Every study I've read contradicts that statement.

And article explaining why, with bicycling causing such a tiny percentage of serious or fatal TBI, we should still nag bicyclists to never ride without a marginally protective cap.

Perhaps I'll link that along with an article explaining why, with AR-15s used in such a tiny percentage of mass shootings, we should ban AR-15s.